# SDMB - Fair and Balanced ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353 "2005-06-29T13:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/261 "2005-07-01T17:17:23Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think the only reasonable question is whether it was due to deliberate deceit of others, or inadvertent self-deceit. Why on earth would you remove “intentional deceit of the American public” from the table of reasonable explanations? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/262 "2005-07-01T18:00:08Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Why on earth would you remove “intentional deceit of the American public” from the table of reasonable explanations? That’s what I meant by “deliberate deceit of others”. The “others” were The American Public, etc. As in, are they deliberately deceiving other people, or have they inadvertently deceived themselves. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/263 "2005-07-01T18:11:05Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Why on earth would you remove “intentional deceit of the American public” from the table of reasonable explanations? To allow for unpalatable forms of Machiavellianism (for example, if one supports an extreme manifestaton of neoconservative foreign policy). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/264 "2005-07-01T18:15:12Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s what I meant by “deliberate deceit of others”. The “others” were The American Public, etc. > > As in, are they deliberately deceiving other people, or have they inadvertently deceived themselves. Oh, got it. I misread you; I thought you meant that the administration was the victim of deliberate deceit by other actors (CIA informants and the like). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/265 "2005-07-01T18:47:33Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Oh, got it. I misread you; I thought you meant that the administration was the victim of deliberate deceit by other actors (CIA informants and the like). Which I suppose is a third option, although not one that I’ve ever heard even the most tinfoil-hat-oriented person propose, at least not as a general explanation for the whole situation. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/266 "2005-07-01T19:40:52Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > lekatt, I would like to point out something. Earlier in this thread, you said the following.All those sound like nice ideas. However, if you are wondering why people don’t follow them in regards to you, it is because you have violated most of those points, and also because many of your posts are in fact easy to judge at face value. Also, often your “case studies” are nothing of the kind. I would like a cite or two on that, just to clarify things, if you can’t produce them I assume you don’t know what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/267 "2005-07-01T19:44:16Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I would like a cite or two on that, just to clarify things, if you can’t produce them I assume you don’t know what you are talking about. 😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃 : That was meant as constructive criticism But, really, I will start looking for cites if that is what it takes to convince you. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/268 "2005-07-01T19:55:20Z")
Don’t assume you know what we are thinking, unless you are a card carrying psychic. [Here is an example](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6302876&postcount=69) Any post of your about Michael Schiavo. Sure, so he is not a doper. So what? Remember that respect is the cornerstone of all debates. [Randi asks the Smithsonian: You want $16K or $20K?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6251356#post6251356) Never assume at attitude of superiority, or indicate your opponent is ignorant. [Randi asks the Smithsonian: You want $16K or $20K?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6251356#post6251356) Any post of your about Terri Schiavo ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/269 "2005-07-01T20:58:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Perhaps it was the haste that you wrote the above quote with, perhaps it’s my own inability to parse it, but I am having a hard time figuring out what you tried to convey. > > You appear to be saying that Iraq was a part of TWAT simply because Bush said so despite all available evidence – then and specially now – to the contrary. How in the world can you justify said belief? Maybe we have reached a fundamental disagreement. You say “despite all available evidence”. I would say “because of all available evidence”. Said “available evidence” meaning the twelve years of violations of the inspection regime, unquestioned fact that Iraq was hostile to the US and her allies, unquestioned fact that Iraq had a history of aggression against her neighbors, unquestioned fact that Iraq possessed WMDs in the past, unquestioned fact that Iraq had used WMDs in the past, and so forth. **Those** are the reasons why Iraq is part of the global war on terror. Maybe that explains why some folks are so desperate to parse everything Bush says to get it to mean “Saddam was involved in 9/11”. The short answer is, there are other reasons besides “being involved in 9/11” to class somebody as an enemy in the war on terror. Which is why North Korea, Libya, Iran, and Iraq, none of whom were involved in 9/11, are all part of the axis of evil. > [@RedFury](#): > > Not that your second line is any more encouraging, because, once again in my interpretation, all you seem to be saying is that you chose to invade Iraq because it was the path of least resistance and well, simply because you _could_. IOW, nothing more, or less, than the simplistic yet deadly Big Dog approach other Bush backers favor. Well, if you want to characterize it that way. I would not say that we invaded Iraq just because we felt like it. It was triggered (and here we run into difficulties of understanding) by 9/11 - **not** because Iraq was involved in 9/11, but because we were made aware of the threat of terrorism by that attack. Threats from a number of places and countries. Hence the axis of evil, and the new urgency of dealing with places like North Korea and Libya, as well as Iraq. > [@RedFury](#): > > Lesson learned? Best hurry up and get your WMDs less the Big Dog comes to our house. Or else, don’t even think about making it look like you want to get some nukes, if you are already on our shit list from twelve years of bad behavior. Because the Big Dog don’t like that, and you will wind up in a spider hole and on trial. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/270 "2005-07-01T21:05:30Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Which I suppose is a third option, although not one that I’ve ever heard even the most tinfoil-hat-oriented person propose, at least not as a general explanation for the whole situation. Not overall, but certainly it’s a not-unreasonable hypothesis that people like Chalabi contributed greatly to the justifications the Administration sought. ---
**Author:** ![boofuu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@boofuu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofuu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/271 "2005-07-02T00:04:21Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And, given how closely divided the country is right now, we need every ally we can get. To hear someone, who is presumably a voting American citizen, say “well, I just don’t know yet” is very frustrating, particularly as it smacks of some combination of “come back when there’s some difference between your parties” (what, the fact that the Republicans currently support BUSH isn’t a difference?) or “eh, I’m too lazy to have formed an opinion” (in THESE of all times?). I purposely did not say whether I agree or disagree with Pres. I said that I thought that neither the conservatives nor the liberals **on this Board** were doing a convincing job of making me want to ally myself with either party. Wait, I totally see where I lost ya. In my first post I called myself “a decidedly undecided person politics-wise.” My bad. I should have said that I am undecided in that I am not going to confine myself to a party or philosophy that has a neat, pat little name. Undecided, not ambivilant or ignorant. I was talking in the general tense, not in the Bush pluperfect. You are just a little confused with how to deal with me because I not rabidly anti- or pro- Pres. Bush. Like when you don’t know if a baby is a boy or a girl. Do I cuddle it or do I bounce it on your knee? > [@](#): > > Also, you don’t have to believe that Bush lied in order to think that he’s done a bad job. For that matter, you could well think that he did lie and still want to vote for him. You want me to say that I am against Pres. Bush and that I think he is a dirty dirty little man. I will not. I am also not going to call him the paragon of virtue leading the world into democracy. I came into the discussion talking about the Straight Dope Boards. I have very firm views about the administration and the course that The War is making. I am not going to get into a discussion about my specific beliefs; that was not necessary for the point I was addressing initially. All I will say is that I think that The War is misguided. I also believe that the average American _makes no distinction_ between 9/11, WMDs, Afghanistan, Iraq or Bin Laden when thinking about The War. I think that Pres. Bush and retainers more than likely willfully used that to rally us for war. I personally saw what happened with Panama when Pres. Bush the Elder removed Manuel Noriega and that was a much less contentious region. I am now more concerned with how we are going to help bring stability into the region. I will let you and others find the evidence for the impeachment trial. > [@](#): > > I think you’re slightly overstating the level of division on this board. Obviously, you are a player on this forum. As an observer, I can assure that it most definitely looks divisive. I do not think I am overstating things. Hell, would the OP have been submitted if there was not a great division? Would we be on the 7th page of posts? Your use of the word “ally” makes me think that you cannot possibly believe that it is not as divisive as all that. Maybe not numbers-wise, since the Liberal voice is much louder. I am an ally of the United States and the concept of democracy. Not an ally of the Democrats, not of the Republicans. I mean, really. Because I do not have a donkey or elephant tattooed on my ass does not mean that I cannot form an opinion on my own. > [@](#): > > Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! You thought the thread wasn’t about Bush? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You can laugh. But the only reason I even opened this thread was thinking that it was about the actual leanings of the Board. Go fig. I was not dumb enough to think that Pres. Bush was not going to be mentioned. I just did not realize this was just another variation of the “Bush-sucks, Liberals-suck” circle jerk. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/272 "2005-07-02T01:09:07Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Don’t assume you know what we are thinking, unless you are a card carrying psychic. > [Here is an example](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6302876&postcount=69) > Any post of your about Michael Schiavo. Sure, so he is not a doper. So what? > > Remember that respect is the cornerstone of all debates. > [Randi asks the Smithsonian: You want $16K or $20K?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6251356#post6251356) > > Never assume at attitude of superiority, or indicate your opponent is ignorant. > [Randi asks the Smithsonian: You want $16K or $20K?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6251356#post6251356) > Any post of your about Terri Schiavo What you posted are matters of opinion, I have a right to my opinion the same as anyone else. I don’t know why you keep attacking me, but I would like for it to stop now. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/273 "2005-07-02T01:40:47Z")
I think this thread has proved the OP point many times over. It is sad, but true. The posts showing hate for Bush, Christians, anything conservative, spiritual or religious far outnumber the moderate or conservative voices here. The world is black and white, nothing else matters. I didn’t come here to argue but to learn, and I have succeeded in learning many things about the people here. I am a life-long democrat, never voted for any of the Bush family. However, I certainly wouldn’t want this country of ours in the hands of people who think and act like the majority of posters on this board. Unless the democrats can get their act together and come up with a honest, sincere candidate in 08, I will be forced to vote republican. You are your own worst enemies. In my opinion, the only hope for this board would be strict moderation by actual moderates. Don’t think it will ever happen thought, in fact it might reduce the posters a lot for a while. Reality is, each board has its own spin, just like bars. I believe the reason it’s taking so long to fight ignorance here is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/274 "2005-07-02T01:54:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I believe the reason it’s taking so long to fight ignorance here is obvious. Why, too many people saying one thing and doing another? Sorry, pal, but **Scott** caught you dead to rights. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/275 "2005-07-02T03:39:04Z")
> [@Lekatt](#): > > …The posts showing hate for Bush… I don’t hate Bush, I hate what is happening to my beloved country. Hating Bush would be like hating Pinnochio for what Gepetto built. Bush might make a perfectly serviceable commissioner of baseball, or some sinecure for well-meaning but dim rich boys. But President? What has he ever done, ever accomplished on his own that would give you any confidence? He hasn’t the least clue how the rest of us live, the only meal he ever missed was because room service was closed. Clueless, utterly clueless. And God help us all, he thinks he’s a Leader of Men, a Man of Destiny. Usually, a man’s self-delusions will only destroy himself. Unless he’s elected. Christians? Love ‘em, love ‘em to pieces! But it sure seems like a lot of them went to a different Sunday school than I did, their Jesus just walks around scowling and threatening people, they seem to believe that people are basicly rotten and only behave if you scare them into it. I know some real stinkers, and I don’t love them, Jesus knows them too and loves them anyway, which is why He’s Jesus, and I’m not. They are Pharisees, publicly pious and self-righteously cruel. I am not needful of their instruction, already got Jesus in my heart, don’t need Him rammed down my throat. Conservatives? OK in my book, the genuine kind of conservatives, the kind who counsel progress tempered with prudence and caution. We can negotiate, compromise and move forward, and on the rare occasion when I’m wrong, they’re there to put on the brakes. What I don’t like are _reactionaries_, trying to turn the clock back to a Golden Age that never existed in the first place. Already fought those fights once, and I’m _damned_ if I’ll let them get away with it! > [@](#): > > …Unless the democrats can get their act together and come up with a honest, sincere candidate in 08, I will be forced to vote republican… That might be best. If you genuinely believe that the people who pull the levers on the animotronic George have the best interests of the nation at heart, you should. Every argument, no matter how sincere, solid, and well intended is going to fall on at least one set of deaf ears. But if the only people who are hopping mad about this shit were leftys, atheists, gays and freedom haters, then GeeDubya’s approval rating would be 97%. Not 42%. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, for these are interesting times. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/276 "2005-07-02T04:17:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I do. Do you, as well, recognize a distinction between “United States of America” and “United Nations”? Iraq had a committment to the UN, not the US. I know its only a silly little letter, but those twits at the UN seem bent on insisting that they are not merely an arm of the US Government. That the US does not have the right to make and enforce judgements on obligations to the UN. Where do they get such bizarre notions? > > That dog won’t hunt. That dog is dead. Now, waaaiiiiit jus a minute– I distinctly remember W going on tv and saying “Well pilgrim, you’re just going to have to lay down your cards, and we’ll see where everyone stands after the vo–” oh. wait. that’s right. He was just blowing smoke up our asses, he HAD no cards to lay down so he folded his hand (morally, so to speak) He is a chickenshit war criminal, and a disgrace to his office. That doesn’t mean I hate him–I don’t hate the insane, I hate the insanity ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/277 "2005-07-02T04:23:01Z")
Oh, I remember it well! Wonder if some aide leaned over and whispered “Mr. President? Half of seventeen isn’t five.” ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/278 "2005-07-02T04:45:21Z")
So THAT’s why he was untying his shoes when they dragged him off–it was the numerical challenge of computations exceeding the number of fingers on his hands…If only he had been barefoot to start with, the whole thing could have been handled by a session of “this little piggy” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/279 "2005-07-02T06:03:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Now, a majority of Americans believes that we were misled. (A fact I find just a tad disconcerting, I am so rarely in a majority opinion, I almost want to bolt out of habit…) The thing I find disconcerting is the number of people who excuse GW on the technicality that “he didn’t actually lie,” he merely exaggerated. I expect more from all politicians than that they merely not be guilty of legal perjury. Exaggeration, equivocation and the like are all deceitful and I do not think it should be tolerated from political leaders. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353/280 "2005-07-02T06:27:48Z")
David, you play the hand you’re dealt. Folding doesn’t seem to be an option so they have to bluff their asses off to make the best of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fair-and-balanced/310353.md?page=15)