# SDMB Fantasy Football early discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750 "2007-07-14T13:51:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/181 "2007-08-26T15:30:19Z")
[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma] Yahoo doesn’t have to support it. It’s rather simple. I trade down and draft whomever that owner wants in my spot, they draft whomever I want in their spot, and then after the draft we trade the players that were drafted in the spots we agreed to trade. I’m assuming that the honor system would be in effect in a league like this, yeah? There are two specific spots in which I would absolutely want to trade down or up, so I’d like to know in advance what my order is so I can start preparing for that and talking to our other owners. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s how it works, but there are various issues you have to consider. What if the guy you traded picks with can’t make the live draft? Or worse, what if he’s there but loses power during the draft? Also, do you (and the guy you’re trading with) have some idea of what the draft picks are worth, or do you just go by what feels right? If the latter, is there some sort of veto power for the group like yahoo has for in-season trades? Does the commish get veto power? If anyone can trade, everyone can trade, which can easily result in dozens of individual picks being made by different owners during the draft. Are you confident that everyone could handle their off-team picks on their own, or would you volunteer to remind everyone as their off-team picks got on the clock? I’m down with trading, but it’s way late in the game for that now what with the live draft less than 60 hours away. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/182 "2007-08-26T17:15:28Z")
The trading thing might be a little complex. We’re crunched for time - first we need to establish that most people are okay with knowing our draft order pre-draft, and then we’d have to discuss trades, and then make them happen. I also wonder if this feature could add unintentional unfairness to our league when someone made a bad trade in good faith - say, giving up a whole lot of picks to go #1 overall for Tomlinson - which upset the balance of the league. Are you two okay with the idea of establishing a pre-draft draft order? Given that we have less than 3 days left, if we don’t get a bunch of responses today about it I figure it’ll probably be best just to let the draft proceed without it. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/183 "2007-08-26T19:16:53Z")
Yeah, I’m cool with it, but I’m actively checking the thread so it wouldn’t have slipped past me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/184 "2007-08-26T20:51:46Z")
I like the idea of predetermining draft order. I hate the idea of opening the pick-trading can of worms. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/185 "2007-08-26T21:37:06Z")
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] I like the idea of predetermining draft order. [/QUOTE] Let’s get it rolling. I sent a shuffled list of the 12 owners to SenorBeef via PM. You send him a shuffled list of the 12 numbers. **SenorBeef** , once you get **Jimmy** ’s PM, post my list and his list to this thread so that the process is exposed to all. (Now watch, Jimmy & I will end up with the top two picks and we’ll have to start over.) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/186 "2007-08-26T22:17:14Z")
Conspiracy! Unless I’m top 2. Then it’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/187 "2007-08-26T22:35:19Z")
Should we implement pre-draft order even if most of the people from the league don’t chime in? I don’t really want to give anyone a disadvantage. On the other hand, I’d hope they’d be reading this thread. We should clear this up before the numbers are sent to me so I don’t have a conflict of interest (that is, it could be perceived that my position in the draft order could influence whether or not I implement this method) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/188 "2007-08-27T02:29:45Z")
Well, I say yes. I don’t know how available I’ll be over the next day and change, so I’m sending the sequence now. Don’t look at it! ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/189 "2007-08-27T02:41:06Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Should we implement pre-draft order even if most of the people from the league don’t chime in? I don’t really want to give anyone a disadvantage. On the other hand, I’d hope they’d be reading this thread. [/QUOTE] I say just go for it; you’re the commish, so you can make the call. Executive decision. Post the two lists plus the resulting draft order to this thread and to the yahoo league. If somebody doesn’t bother to look in either place before the draft, well, they’re just not doing their due diligence. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/190 "2007-08-27T02:48:17Z")
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] Well, I say yes. I don’t know how available I’ll be over the next day and change, so I’m sending the sequence now. Don’t look at it! [/QUOTE] Sorry, I looked at the message before I saw this thread. But you sent me a sequence of 11 numbers, so it wouldn’t work anyway. [QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I say just go for it; you’re the commish, so you can make the call. Executive decision. Post the two lists plus the resulting draft order to this thread and to the yahoo league. If somebody doesn’t bother to look in either place before the draft, well, they’re just not doing their due diligence. [/QUOTE] One of my concerns is that Retroveritigo’s computer blew up, but he’s made arrangements to draft from the school computer. It wouldn’t really be his fault if he shows up at the draft and didn’t know we had a preset order. This is an idea I’d have liked if we were implementing it two weeks before the draft rather than two days. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/191 "2007-08-27T09:21:27Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Yeah, that’s how it works, but there are various issues you have to consider. What if the guy you traded picks with can’t make the live draft? Or worse, what if he’s there but loses power during the draft? Also, do you (and the guy you’re trading with) have some idea of what the draft picks are worth, or do you just go by what feels right? If the latter, is there some sort of veto power for the group like yahoo has for in-season trades? Does the commish get veto power? If anyone can trade, everyone can trade, which can easily result in dozens of individual picks being made by different owners during the draft. Are you confident that everyone could handle their off-team picks on their own, or would you volunteer to remind everyone as their off-team picks got on the clock? I’m down with trading, but it’s way late in the game for that now what with the live draft less than 60 hours away. [/QUOTE] All valid points, but I was just wanting to get a head start on the discussion of trades, not actually perform them. All draft day trades I would make would be done on the actual day, which would preempt the problem with a person not making the draft. The power outage is a problem, and I can’t easily think of a way around it, but it seems to me to be a concern raised from a very far distance away from probability. It’s a valid point, I admit, but I can’t see it really being a problem too much. I have an idea of what every pick is worth, and I would imagine everyone would have their own value formula. That’s the beauty of trading- one man’s trash etc. As far as veto power, we’re talking about picks here, how can you say it’s unfair to trade a 6th and a 7th for a 4th?. I imagine if someone wanted to trade a 10th and an 11th for a 1, there would be a valid concern, but I really hate the idea of vetoes on trades that aren’t clearly one-sided. I’ve come to really hate having people veto a trade just because they didn’t agree with the principle, or vetoing because someone has a grudge against another player and builds up some favors to get a trade vetoed to anger another player. I’ve had several of my trades vetoed because the league felt I was being cheated, which is insane. As long as it isn’t completely ridiculous, I say go for it. Never been a fan of protecting people from their own folly 🙂 If you make a trade of picks, I would assume you were interested enough in the picks to keep them straight. If we were trading picks, I would absolutely be keeping track of everyone’s trades anyway. It’s more fun 🙂 Does seem a bit too late for it though, shame. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/192 "2007-08-27T16:29:41Z")
[QUOTE=EsotericEnigma] I have an idea of what every pick is worth, and I would imagine everyone would have their own value formula. That’s the beauty of trading- one man’s trash etc. As far as veto power, we’re talking about picks here, how can you say it’s unfair to trade a 6th and a 7th for a 4th?. [/QUOTE] [post=7641471]Here[/post] is the draft pick value chart we use in the keeper league. It’s formatted for a 14-player league, but it could easily be redone for a 12-player league. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/193 "2007-08-28T05:09:07Z")
Since there were no objections, I changed the roster to give us 7 bench positions. If there are any last minute suggestions/objections to the league scoring system, this is your last chance to voice them. When I was setting up the defense scoring system, I just entered values pretty much arbitrarily and we haven’t discussed them. Do these look good to everyone? ```auto Points Allowed 0 points (15) Points Allowed 1-6 points (10) Points Allowed 7-13 points (6) Points Allowed 14-20 points (3) Points Allowed 21-27 points (0) Points Allowed 28-34 points (-5) Points Allowed 35+ points (-10) ``` It rewards a great game, and punishes a bad game, more than the default system. All of the other scoring categories are the default. Does that look good? I worry that -10 might be a penalty that’s too big - but on the other hand, if you start a defense that gets utterly trashed like that you probably deserve a big penalty. The draft is tomorrow at 9pm eastern. Please don’t let it slip your mind. I suggest spending some time putting some thought into your draft order, at least for the first two rounds, so you’re not pretty much winging it with 1 minute 30 seconds on the clock. Think about how our scoring system might rank players differently from how a website listing might order players from a more conventional scoring system. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/194 "2007-08-28T05:46:46Z")
Oh - something I wanted to clarify. When we discussed giving yardage for special teams returns, we were speaking specifically of the team defense/special teams scoring. Individual players are still rewarded with return yards at 25 yards per point. Defense/special teams are also given credit for return touchdowns, just not yardage. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/195 "2007-08-28T19:43:48Z")
Draft is in about 5 hours. You can log into the yahoo draft page about 30-45 minutes beforehand if I recall correctly. You’ll find out your draft position at 8:30 eastern, so I recommend being logged in by then. Hope to see 10 of you tonight. I’ll send out a private message reminder in a few hours to people who haven’t been active in the thread lately just to be extra anal just in case. After the draft, by the way, I’ll start a new thread since this one is already 4 pages long - this thread was more about gathering and designing the league, and the next one will be the in-season discussion. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/196 "2007-08-28T23:08:39Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Draft is in about 5 hours. You can log into the yahoo draft page about 30-45 minutes beforehand if I recall correctly. You’ll find out your draft position at 8:30 eastern, so I recommend being logged in by then. Hope to see 10 of you tonight. I’ll send out a private message reminder in a few hours to people who haven’t been active in the thread lately just to be extra anal just in case. After the draft, by the way, I’ll start a new thread since this one is already 4 pages long - this thread was more about gathering and designing the league, and the next one will be the in-season discussion. [/QUOTE] PM me a link to it once it’s created. I was going to post the draft results here right after the draft, but it would be better to post them in the new thread. The utility I wrote auto-formats it for me, so there is no labor involved in generating the formatted draft results. Under two hours to go… ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/197 "2007-08-28T23:15:42Z")
I’m happy with how my leagues turned out so far. I’ve got an autodraft soon. I hope that goes well, because nobody in that league EVAR trades. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/198 "2007-08-28T23:31:09Z")
Alright everyone, the new thread is here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8926443#post8926443](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8926443#post8926443) Please move your post-draft discussions over to there. By the way - I think we’re all good with using Ellis Dee’s proposed waiver system - I’ll repost it there soon. > [@](#): > > WAIVER WIRE > All players go on waivers starting at kickoff of their game, and come off Wednesday. Prior to Wednesday, file waiver claims via email if the player cannot start until next week. (As in, his game was already played.) > > PURPOSE > The WAIVER WIRE is in effect so that breakout players don’t get awarded based on who is closest to the computer on Sunday afternoons. > > BYE WEEKS > From Wednesday on, if a player is going into a bye week he is not subject to waivers for the entire week. Before Wednesday, players who just had a bye are not subject to waivers and can be signed any time. > > MAKING CLAIMS > While players are on waivers, make a claim by emailing the player(s) you want to me. Title your email “Waiver claim”. Include as many players as you like, but list them in order of most wanted first. Include the players’ full first and last names, positions, and teams. I will send back confirmation emails to claims made before Tuesday. > > AWARDING PLAYERS > Players will be awarded based on waiver priority, and each successful claim pushes you to the end of the line. Each Tuesday night I’ll post a notification here detailing who got awarded to whom. You can then add the guys you won yourself, as well as freely sign any other free agents not claimed by anyone else. If you won’t be able to make your roster adjustments yourself, I’m happy to do it for you if you let me know in your waiver claim. Include who you want to drop to make room, and also note if you want them to start and who should be benched. > > CLAIM JUMPS (Signing a guy while he’s on waivers) > I won’t be locking and unlocking the rosters, but I will be undoing any free agent acquisitions that jump the waiver wire. There is no penalty for jumping the waiver wire other than tipping your hand to everyone else. I won’t generally undo Tuesday claim jumps, nor will I confirm them by email. Claim jumps are automatically logged as waiver claims, and as such any other owners are still free to file a claim on the jumped player(s). If you did not want to spend a waiver claim on a guy you accidentally jumped, email me to let me know. > > YAHOO DEFAULT WAIVERS > In addition to Wednesday waivers, yahoo’s internal waiver system also pushes you to the end of waiver priority. The safest approach is to scan a few days back in the transaction history to see if the guy you want was recently released. If he was, then at least be aware that you could lose WP if you sign him. If you accidentally sign someone off waivers without intending to, dropping me an email ASAP will greatly increase your odds of having me undo it for you. Points of clarification - when you say until Wednesday, you mean Tuesday night/Wednesday morning at midnight? You make later references to doing things on Tuesday, but if the waiver period was open until Tuesday was officially closed, that seems like a contradiction. Tuesday night/Wednesday morning seems like a decent time, anyway. I’ll usually be on and available then. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/199 "2007-08-29T00:33:49Z")
Draft order set: 1. The Gridbirds 2. chitwood 3. Court Jesters 4. The Concussions 5. No Use For A… 6. Tazmanian De… 7. Exploding Pa… 8. Quentin’s JA… 9. Frosted\_Ligh… 10. Kid\_A 11. Isotopes 12. New York Fan… Go to either the main fantasy football page, or the league overview page, and click “enter live draft” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750/200 "2007-08-29T00:46:34Z")
Ouch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-fantasy-football-early-discussion/411750.md?page=9)