# SDMB Hall of Fame Project: First Basemen **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [December 13, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637 "2016-12-13T21:02:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/21 "2016-12-14T16:04:17Z")
My ballot: Rod Carew Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Eddie Murray Frank Thomas Mark McGwire Harmon Killebrew Hank Greenberg Johnny Mize Jim Thome Mize was the one that I didn’t know a lot about, and where seeing the stats (and, as RickJay points out, him losing several years in his prime to the war) was really educational. The guy had 10 very strong seasons, and probably should have had three more. I’ve decided to not blackball steroid-era players, but I, too, just really dislike Palmiero. I gave a nod to Jim Thome, as well, even though I’m not entirely convinced that he was great, so much as being pretty good for a lot of years. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/22 "2016-12-14T16:34:42Z")
Jimmie Foxx Johnny Mize Albert Pujols Frank Thomas Jim Thome Willie McCovey Cap Anson Jeff Bagwell Eddie Murray Harmon Killebrew Ole’ Harmon made it onto my list by edging out the many, many great contenders mostly by virtue of having a fun name. He and Eddie Murray probably could be a lot of guys, but they both played forever and were MVP contenders for big chunks of their careers. I’m loathe to put on pure sluggers from the steroids era, but 1B is a slugger position, so it’s not like I can reasonably factor in guys from earlier or later years based on their defensive skills. Sure, you can be a bad defensive first baseman, but I don’t think you can really be a great based on it: if you were, you would be playing somewhere else. That being said, Jim Thome was a guy that never stank of steroids like McGwire and Palmeiro; he was just a big ole’ country boy whose career followed a normal arc that lasted a long time and had a very high peak. Also: Cleveland Indian. I was a bit shocked at how high Bagwell sat on the WAR leaders list: he was one of those guys that snuck into my mind when I started thinking about this, but I figured he’d be in that big group of guys with 50-60 career WAR. John Olerud and Keith Hernandez are two guys that I often think of as just under the low bar of the HOF. Hernandez had one or two great seasons, and other than that, both of them together just put together very, very good performances for years without either standing out as the best player of their time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/23 "2016-12-14T16:43:17Z")
**Ballot change alert:** Decided to wait to vote for Miggy for the multi-positional ballot-forgot he also played a fair amount in the outfield. Added Big Mac. Albert Pujols Jimmie Foxx Jeff Bagwell Johnny Mize Frank Thomas Jim Thome Todd Helton Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Mark McGwire I am really surprised that there’s no love for [Todd Helton](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/heltoto01.shtml). Biggest (traditional) knock against him is his relative lack of counting stats, and that he played in Denver. A lot of people will probably be voting for Edgar Martinez when DH’s (multipositional ballot) get voted on, but Helton looks pretty good in comparision (Edgar is 2nd on his comp list). Edgar is the better hitter (once the Colorado air is taken out of the equation), but Helton gets a lot of credit for his D, and as a result BB Reference likes Helton’s peak (very few of these guys outside of the top two have a multi-year peak over 7.0 WAR/season). His playing time is right around the average for the [JAWS top 15](http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml). Here is his 6 year peak average, 2000-2005: ## G\_\_ PA\_ AB\_ R\_\_ H\_ 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO\_ BA\_\_ SLG\_ OBP\_ OPS\_\_ OPS+ WAR 156 679 560 120 193 49 3 34 116 107 80 .344 .449 .626 1.076 158 7.0 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/24 "2016-12-14T16:51:46Z")
Albert Pujols Rod Carew Buck Leonard Jimmie Foxx Cap Anson Willie McCovey Eddie Murray Hank Greenberg Jim Thome Harmon Killebrew ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/25 "2016-12-14T18:29:14Z")
I’ll figure out who I’m voting for here pretty soon. In the meantime, don;t know if any of you have been following Joe Posnanski’s ongiong blog posts about \*all \*the HOF candidates this year. He started at the back end, with people like Matt Stairs, and is working his way forward–he’s gotten up to folks who were actually quite good, at least for a short while, but not exactly HOF material. Anyway, they’re a lot of fun. Here’s a link to Derrek Lee: [http://joeposnanski.com/ballot-24-derrek-lee/](http://joeposnanski.com/ballot-24-derrek-lee/). ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/26 "2016-12-14T18:55:14Z")
Albert Pujols Rod Carew Miguel Cabrera Buck Leonard Jimmie Foxx Cap Anson Eddie Murray Hank Greenberg Frank Thomas Jim Thome ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/27 "2016-12-14T19:25:33Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I am really surprised that there’s no love for [Todd Helton](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/heltoto01.shtml). Biggest (traditional) knock against him is his relative lack of counting stats, and that he played in Denver. Has some stathead come up with a way to normalize for playing in Denver? I’ve got to say, I discounted Helton (as I discount hitters coming from Colorado when I consider fantasy players who have made moves) because of the whole thin-air deal. I imagine that my subjective response is a lot more kneejerk than it should be. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/28 "2016-12-14T20:20:58Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > Has some stathead come up with a way to normalize for playing in Denver? I’ve got to say, I discounted Helton (as I discount hitters coming from Colorado when I consider fantasy players who have made moves) because of the whole thin-air deal. I imagine that my subjective response is a lot more kneejerk than it should be. That’s what OPS+ and WAR are for, they do figure out park effects. Helton’s career OPS+ is 133, which to give you some idea of context is about the same as Fred McGriff, who played more games than Helton did. and will not get a single vote in this thread unless someone wants to just prove me wrong. McGriff was at least as valuable a hitter as Helton was, and the argument that Helton was a better player basically hinges on the assumption that WAR is right and McGriff was an absolutely terrible fielder, which I guess is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/29 "2016-12-14T20:47:58Z")
Albert Pujols Jimmie Foxx Cap Anson Rafael Palmeiro Mark McGwire Harmon Killebrew Willie McCovey Frank Thomas Johnny Mize Eddie Murray ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/30 "2016-12-14T20:49:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s what OPS+ and WAR are for, they do figure out park effects. > > Helton’s career OPS+ is 133, which to give you some idea of context is about the same as Fred McGriff, who played more games than Helton did. and will not get a single vote in this thread unless someone wants to just prove me wrong. McGriff was at least as valuable a hitter as Helton was, and the argument that Helton was a better player basically hinges on the assumption that WAR is right and **McGriff was an absolutely terrible fielder** , which I guess is possible. Bolding mine. Excuse me, but if that’s true why the hell was he hawking those Tom Emanski instructional videos?! ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/31 "2016-12-14T21:35:57Z")
As always, without reading any of the thread beyond the OP, I deleted names until finally arriving at my Top 10: Albert Pujols Rod Carew Miguel Cabrera Jimmie Foxx Bill Terry Eddie Murray Jim Thome Hank Greenberg Frank Thomas (the one who played for the White Sox in the 90s-00s) George Sisler Although I didn’t vote for him, I think [George Burns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Burns_(first_baseman)) belongs on the ballot ahead of some of the names listed. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/32 "2016-12-14T23:26:38Z")
Somebody had to do it. Thome had 310 HRs at 1B and 93 at 3B, the rest as DH and PH. That makes McGwire that all-time leader while playing the position, with 566. I was really surprised that McGwire only played 37 games at DH. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/33 "2016-12-14T23:38:29Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Bolding mine. Excuse me, but if that’s true why the hell was he hawking those Tom Emanski instructional videos?! Because he was a **MAJOR LEAGUE SUPERSTAR** ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/34 "2016-12-14T23:43:06Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > That makes McGwire that all-time leader while playing the position, with 566. I was really surprised that McGwire only played 37 games at DH. McGwire played for the Cards for half his career and on an A’s team that was stacked with hitters when he was in the AL. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/35 "2016-12-15T00:09:57Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > McGwire played for the Cards for half his career and on an A’s team that was stacked with hitters when he was in the AL. No, he didn’t. He played 12 seasons in Oakland (1329 games) and 5 in St. Louis (545 games.) Considering he was a below average fielder, I’m still surprised. I figured it would be only a couple hundred, though. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/36 "2016-12-15T02:01:57Z")
I will vote for Thome in the DH category. He definitely belongs, and I’d have loved to put him on my list over Mize or Anson, but there will be another chance for him. Same for Carew, he’ll be on my 2nd base ballot. Good thing we’re not voting for every position simultaneously or else those guys might split votes are their various positions. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/37 "2016-12-15T05:44:19Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I am really surprised that there’s no love for [Todd Helton](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/heltoto01.shtml). Biggest (traditional) knock against him is his relative lack of counting stats, and that he played in Denver. He’s only about sixth or seventh at best among players his career overlaps with, behind Cabrera, Pujols, Bagwell, Thomas, Thome, probably Palmeiro and McGwire. If you really think 60 percent of the best first basemen played in the past 20 years then I guess there’s your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/38 "2016-12-15T13:19:42Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Considering he was a below average fielder, I’m still surprised. I figured it would be only a couple hundred, though. When you’re standing on the same field as Jose Canseco, your fielding looks a lot better. The late 80’s A’s had a bunch of lousy outfielders at DH, plus one year of Don Baylor, who wasn’t impressive with a glove at 1B even when he wasn’t a thousand years old. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/39 "2016-12-15T13:45:37Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > I was a bit shocked at how high Bagwell sat on the WAR leaders list: he was one of those guys that snuck into my mind when I started thinking about this, but I figured he’d be in that big group of guys with 50-60 career WAR. Bagwell has a few things going for him that tend to leave him underrated. For me he is a top 5 all time 1b and it is sad that it has taken him so long to get elected to the real hall. While Bagwell ended his career in a hitter’s park, his peak was played in the Astro Dome, which significantly curtailed his numbers. We also gets lumped into the steroid era, but his peak was before then when offense hadn’t gone completely crazy. Finally, unlike most slugging 1b, Bagwell had significant value as a base-runner and defensive player. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637/40 "2016-12-15T15:10:43Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > When you’re standing on the same field as Jose Canseco, your fielding looks a lot better. The late 80’s A’s had a bunch of lousy outfielders at DH, plus one year of Don Baylor, who wasn’t impressive with a glove at 1B even when he wasn’t a thousand years old. Considering that he was so injury prone, I’m surprised McGwire only played 37 games as the DH. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-hall-of-fame-project-first-basemen/774637.md?page=3)