Was against the war in the original thread, still think it was a quite spectacularly bad idea.
Now - well, we need an exit strategy. That is, we have to get troops out of Iraq with some hope that the country won’t fall completely to pieces when they go. How we are supposed to do that … well, that’s the question. It’s sure as heck not going to be easy. I suppose it might be possible for some nation or group of nations, not associated with the original invasion, to set up shop as some kind of “honest brokers” for negotiations between the Iraqi factions; once that was done, maybe it would be possible to phase in a neutral multi-national peacekeeping force to replace the current US and UK troops, at least until a stable central government could start enforcing laws by itself.
Maybe this would be possible. Though I don’t know what neutral nations there are, that would be interested in clearing up the colossal mess that Iraq is now in. Pessimistically, I predict that US and UK troops will remain in place until some convenient excuse can be found to pull out, at which point Iraq will be left to go to hell in a handbasket.
I was against the war then and unfortunately all my worst fears panned out.
I didn’t think BushII had adequate grounds–remember those weapons of mass destruction that required invasion right now?–and he certainly couldn’t muster needed international support. I thought BushCo was arrogantly ignorant about the region, both about what the war would be like and the near impossibility of forging a stable, workable government to fill the vacuum.
I thought Bush was an insular, stupid, lying asshole who thought his bullying electioneering style would translate into well on the world stage. I wanted to be wrong, really hoped against hope that he had strengths and wisdom I just didn’t see. Being right is ashes in the mouth, frankly.
Americans elected Bush, against all evidence that he was a dishonest, incompetent, arrogant fool. Bush created this mess for the world so now it’s our responsiblity to clean it up. Too bad it’s being done in blood and dishonor but that’s what Bush bought.
I was for it then and I support it now. I have a great many problems with how the war is being run, and with many of the frankly stupid things we’ve done in the past three years, but the invasion itself? Absolutely justified and badly needed. Of course, I have had a different view of what this war actually means all along. I remember a discussion with RTFirefly I had at a dopefest back before this whole thing started, I predicted 20-30K U.S. casualties in the first year and a strong U.S. presence in Iraq for “several decades at least”. I’ve always had a long view of this conflict, I knew that exactly the type of shit that’s going on now would go on, and for quite some time, and we have to ride it out. I don’t expect Iraq to really begin to stabilize for another 5 years or so, and I think it’s absolutely vital that we stay there for that long and beyond. If certain political factions get their way and we pull out now or in the immediate future we might as well just nuke Baghdad, it’ll be kinder, quicker and less bloody than what will follow.
The poll is of course seriously flawed. It’s methodology is to inquire what balance of rational considerations war supporters/oppostion brought to their decision.
It notes the imbalance of evidence towards the ‘opposition’ position. Then asks if persons of judgment and integrity are able to articulate their views.
The fatal flaw is of course that an inquiry into the opinion of articulate people, of judgment and integrity, will exclude the large majority of war supporters. The best result to hope for will be wildly unrepresentative.
I’ve been against it since the beginning and nothing has changed, except that it may possibly wind up worse than I thought it could. I agree, now that we’ve stepped in it, we need out in a sensible time frame, causing the least possible casualties to our troops and the poor population of Iraq.
I’d like to think that the US will learn from this catastrophe, but then I’m a dreamer like that. We won’t.
I’m not going to attempt to restrict this thread to those who only responded to the first poll. I will, however, back up the OP in his desire to not have this turn into an argument/debate.
People who wish to argue/debate subjects raised here may do so by starting a new thread here, in GD, or in the Pit.
Frankly, I’m confused. Not about the war, but about what I said and when in that thread
And the date was 03-18-2003, 08:53 AM, but memory tells me that I wasn’t happy with the thing before we rolled across the boarder, and while I can’t tell you the exact moment I decided that the war was wrong, I can tell you what triggered it. It was a Dope thread arguing about the matter and one of the pro-war posters whipped out Robert McNamara’s saw about the people in power having access to information that we didn’t. At that moment, I realized we’d been had by all of Bush’s claims that Iraq had WMDs, this was further confirmed for me right after the war started and we didn’t have troops immediately parachuting/landing in the areas where Rumsfeld had claimed the WMDs were. So, I’m left wondering WTF I was thinking when I posted my comments.
All that being said, I’d love it if our troops came home tomorrow, however I don’t think that’s going to be possible, nor do I see it as being possible for our troops being able to come home before at least the middle of the next administration, because this administration is simply incapable of admitting that they’ve screwed shit up and taking the necessary steps to correct the problems. Then again, we’ve still got troops in Germany and Japan some 60 years after the end of WWII and nearly 2 decades after the fall of Communism (except in China, Vietnam, and Cuba), so I’m not optimistic that we’ll ever get out of there.
We were wrong to invade, and we can’t pull out until we’re certain the country will remain stable.
I can’t believe I didn’t post in the original poll thread, because I was screaming my head off on the Internet to anyone that would listen that this war was a stupid lie in early 2003.
Now? Bush should be removed from office immediately by impeachment for gross derliction of duty, lying to congress and the american people, and violations of the UN Charter and Geneva Convention. Then he should be extradited to the Hauge.
As for Iraq, frankly, I don’t know what the hell to do. I no longer think we are masters of our fate in the Middle East. It would take a statesman of Lincoln or Jefferson’s stature to pull our chestnuts out of the fire at this point. I don’t see anyone like that around. Do you?
Apparently I missed the poll the first time, but I’ve never supported the war in Iraq. I never believed that Iraq was a serious threat to the US. As for Bush, I’ll just say that I’ll be thrilled if it turns out that the 20-Year Curse is still working. That said, we can’t leave Iraq now. We have an obligation to the Iraqi people to establish a stable, responsible government to take Saddam’s place. We broke it, we bought it.
Exactly what Eva Luna said - in addition, the US should utterly change tactics and try to humanise their soldiers in the eyes of the people, and vice versa. Tough job that won’t ever happen.
Bloody stupid, disastrous decision that will go down in history of one of the biggest fuckups in US history.
Whatever validation I might feel for having been absolutely right in the original thread (and its corollaries) that this invasion was a terrible idea which would have predictably horrifying consequences is dwarfed by the enormously depressing twin realities that those consequences involve the terrible suffering of millions of people and that even now a great many pro-war observers are continuing to willfully blind themselves not just to that suffering but also to their complicity in causing it in order to maintain an abstract consistency with their original beliefs.
Oh, and with respect to the poll: I opposed the invasion, events have clearly demonstrated the rightness of this opposition, and current events indicate the proper course of action is to withdraw immediately and almost completely, the sole exception to a withdrawal being to slap a uniform on Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, and the other merry members of the bandit clan and let them patrol their own emerging democracy.
Opposed then, oppose now. I don’t think we should just up and leave immediately, though. I think we screwed up, and we should work on a steady and consistent withdrawal with a definite timetable to be completely out.