# Sdmb mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 30, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198 "2008-10-30T02:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/221 "2008-11-03T20:04:33Z")
> [@amrussell](#): > > _“Ah, I do so love to begin things. Is it not admirable, how simple things are in their beginnings?”_ > > Unpredictable Nightfall: This is potentially tricky, because a) it might mean people don’t get a vote in and b) it gives scum an excuse not to get a vote in. On the other hand, it takes away any chance of end-game last-minute vote rushes. As we’re at the beginning of the game, our concern now should be with the risk that a Day ends with less than ten votes cast. The only suggestion I can offer is that we regard failure to get any vote in by the lower threshold of 48 hours as an anti-town move. I know there are various players who prefer to make judicious votes in the last 24 hours: this is your opportunity to display adaptability. > > Also, if I interpret Rule 5 correctly, there is no such thing as a tie: it will take a minimum of two votes to put second place into the lead. Consequently, thinking about it, being vote leader will be an exceptionally precarious position. You could die at any time and you need a lot of help to get out of it. So, vote early, vote carefully… This is something I intended to cover in my last post and it completely slipped my mind by the time I clicked submit. I think we have to be very careful about how the Day ending applies to tells. For instance, I DO think it’s a pro-town move to vote early with this rule set, but that’s not always possible. The reason I warn is I don’t want this to turn into a meta-gamey “he didn’t vote, therefore, it’s anti-town” when the explanation could simply be that the Day was very short and fell on a time when his access to the thread is limited to non-existent. That said, I have enough faith in the sportsmanship of the players here not to abuse the potential meta-game aspect of the rules of this game that that shouldn’t be an issue. Instead, I’d simply say that I generally agree, and that a failure is anti-town, but it doesn’t mean it’s scum motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/222 "2008-11-03T20:09:43Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > This is what I’m basing that on, if it wasn’t clear: > > I read that as town and mafia in the first paragraph, and two individual factions (possibly united, but probably not) in the second. And I think you interpreted this the right way - and with 3 or 4 factions and the Day ending without notice - I do see that a random-vote on Day 1 might be okay. [Just kidding] Unless of course **SANTO** claims mason out of the blue [/ Just kidding] ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/223 "2008-11-03T20:16:45Z")
> [@NaturalBlondChap](#): > > Would it be worth entering into some discussion as to what roles signify a disruptive influence that is trying to bring the board down aka scum. > Admittedly this is a more or less closed game so we really don’t know much other than there are some scum out there with undefined powers and we can spend our lives guessing so this may be completely pointless > > For what it is worth I divided the roles up by type. > > SD Status - I am going to go on a limb and say town > Technician > Administator > Moderator > SDSAB > Charter Member > Member > Guest > > Pseudo Cecil and Ed - scum or not? > Becil Madams > Ned Gotti > > Posting style/forum probably town > Mafia Player > Feuder > > Posting style/forum possibly town > Politico > Junior Mod > Pit Dweller > > Who the hell knows > Celebrity (if it is Weird Al can we lynch him anyway?) > Mark Wit (fuck wit?) > Terry (terry fuck wit? Would make sense if the game designers had read Viz, if not forget it) > > Scum > Sock Puppet > Troll > Hacker > Jerk > > NBC I will have to say this is very dangerous. These various roles, particularly with no potential power information, simply act as a list of names. I think having any preconceived notions about what roles may or may not have powers, may or may not be pro-town, etc. provides extra information to the scum and could lead to a scum being able to fairly safely claim his role if it’s one that looked pro-town, or make it more difficult for a pro-town player to claim if his role looks bad. That said, there are certain names that do lend themselves to certain roles like the moderators or SDSAB do with masons, but that doesn’t mean that either role is in this game, that they’re necessarily a role that’s immediately obvious. Instead, I think we should treat these like any other name. They’re essentially color, but no role-claim is complete without it. Thus, if someone makes a claim about a role that contradicts someone else we can use it as evidence, otherwise, it’s pretty much useless. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/224 "2008-11-03T20:18:46Z")
Let’s make things interesting in here, why don’t we? I’m Terry, the board’s doctor. I kind of think that’s a misspelling (the doctor part, not the Terry part), because my powers seem to align more with what Jerry, the board directors powers would be, and have nothing at all to do with what a Mafia Doctor would do. My powers are not confirmable in any way I can see at this time. However, with more information, that might change. My powers have to do with being able to extend the length of the Day. However, there has to be a very precise game mechanism that happens in order for me to be able to extend a given Day. The old deadline and extension will not be announced publicly, hence the reason my powers aren’t really confirmable. The only way I can think they would be is is somebody else knows when the day was _supposed_ to end, and the Day didn’t end at that time. I’m announcing now to give us a data point to start working off of, and because my power isn’t really powerful enough to effect the game directly (i.e. not investigative, protective, etc.), so it seems me giving a data point will be more useful than holding this info back. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/225 "2008-11-03T20:19:52Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > And as for power roles outing themselves–well, that could happen no matter what we talk about. I don’t see it significantly more likely from discussing which roles might be in the game than, say, piling onto a hapless Ned Gotti. You don’t see how discussing roles could lead to giving away information about roles? _…really?_ ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/226 "2008-11-03T20:21:50Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > You don’t see how discussing roles could lead to giving away information about roles? > > _…really?_ No. 😕 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/227 "2008-11-03T20:22:23Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > You don’t see how discussing roles could lead to giving away information about roles? > > _…really?_ It’s not that it won’t lead to information about roles, it’s just that it’s not going to lead to significantly more role leakage than if we weren’t discussing it. I mean, look. Santo just claimed. He wasn’t in this discussion at all. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/228 "2008-11-03T20:23:03Z")
And I see that I’ve been massively sarnath’d by Santo. Can’t say I’m thrilled with this revelation, but so be it. The flavor seems in line with what jdavis does, keeping the board up longer. But do you see why offering up unnecessary information is a bad thing? Assuming Santo is truthful, the scum now have solid information on whether Santo is worth killing. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/229 "2008-11-03T20:26:58Z")
I spent at least a good three to four minutes thinking about it, and if the scum think I’m worth killing, then it will (hopefully) protect some of our more powerful roles. I’m not too worried about it, especially since the mechanism I speak of probably won’t happen but maybe 20% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/230 "2008-11-03T20:30:55Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Of course, it’s possible that the scum have a power that would give them that information [time of day’s end], but I doubt it. Beside the fact that it’s VERY overpowered because they’d have a enormous amount of sway by being able to effect momentum of different votes swings to get them in a good place at the right time. OTOH, if they DO have a power like that, it may reveal itself through Perfect Information. > > So, all in all, I think it’s neutral at worst, and possibly in town’s favor at best. Hold up…let’s assume for the moment that scum _do_ have this power, and know when day ends. You’re saying that this is neutral/good for town? Are you fricking kidding me? In order for Perfect Information Syndrome to stand out here, the scum would have to make the most blatant plays in the world. Anything less than a complete boneheaded move would have “plausible deniability” written all over it. After all, this _would_ be a very overpowered ability – so much so that I’m guessing it’s not in the game – so all scum would have to do is not go overboard, and they could poke people into banning right before it was too late. Hell, that thinking could be applied to _any_ non-killing power the may have scum have – “It’ll show Perfect Information, so we’ll know they’re scum, so it’s _good_ that they have this ability”. Don’t like it… ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/231 "2008-11-03T20:34:50Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > _lol_ I just don’t believe that scum ever DO a random vote - they know to well how to place a vote! > So IMHO random votes are for town and making it easy for us to be pushed in the directiong scum wants us to go. Without going into a whole lot of detail, since I’ve done it SO many times before, this is precisely the reason why I generally support the logic behind random votes. At worst, everyone goes to [random.org](http://random.org) and votes, and it’s complete noise. More likely, not everyone does, and thus a knowledgeless townie’s random vote is truly random, while a scum’s vote will necessarily not be random. Granted, it’s a very low signal to noise ratio, but there is information. Plus, it can act as a catalyst to get conversation started. That said, I am more wary of a random vote in this game precisely because we don’t know if it will remain a random vote or not. Someone could random vote, intend to do a real one, and then the Day ends early and we’re stuck with a worthless vote. I’ll put more thought into this, but I imagine that by the time I’ve come to a conclusion, there will be enough information in the thread that a purely random vote is no longer justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/232 "2008-11-03T20:38:17Z")
I’m not sure if **Santo’s** claimed power really helps anybody all that much, truth be told, as long as there are voting scum out there and considering how you can’t really tell if somebody’s panic voting because they couldn’t access the boards for a day or if they’re panicked Town or sneaking Scum or etc etc etc. It seems kind of like a WIFOM factory. ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/233 "2008-11-03T20:41:11Z")
First of all, cool - a role claim. I didn’t expect one of those less than 24 hours into the game. Second, a prayer to Og: I have a question about the end of the Day. Does it end exactly 48 (or 72, or whatever) hours from the Day 1 post by **mmouse9799** , or will the almighty Og round up/down the time to the nearest hour (for administrative convenience)? Third, no vote from me yet, but I’ll definitely make one before the 48 hours are up. Meanwhile, I am suspicious of **Hero From Sector 7G** and **pedescribe** for their responses to **Rapier42** ’s posts. **Rapier42** only made 2 posts toDay. The first (post 196) was speculation about what the Jr. Mod role might mean. Afterwards, **Boozahol Squid, P.I.** said (posts 197, 198) that it’s too difficult to guess what the various roles do. Right after that, **Zsofia** said, “They [Jr. Mods] could be like insane cops. I’m not sure this line of thinking is useful, though, without additional information.” **Rapier42** then agreed that he’s not sure either, but offered two things it might be used for later on (post 200). In post 209, **Hero From Sector 7G** says, “ **Rapier** has expressed what I think is a legitimate concern, at this point role discussion could benefit scum more than town.” I don’t see where **Rapier42** expressed any concerns, and find it suspicious that **Hero From Sector 7G** is putting words into **Rapier42** ’s mouth. **Pedescribe** also seems to misinterpret **Rapier42** ’s post, and votes for him. He thinks that post 200 is an attempt to “close off various avenues of discussion,” but says it might have been a “rookie mistake” and unvotes. Again, to me it doesn’t look like **Rapier42** tried to stop the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/234 "2008-11-03T20:41:13Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > And I’m not buddying up with NaturalBlondChap either–I’m suspicious of him until inclined otherwise–but I think that he had an interesting idea and I ran with it. :shrugs: These sorts of comments always rub me the wrong way. Agreeing with someone is not necessarily “buddying up” with him. It’s the fact that you seemed compelled to distance yourself from him that I find curious. However, I’m not sure what to think of it at this point, especially since it’s been a while since I’ve played with you, but it’s a datapoint nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/235 "2008-11-03T20:52:30Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > So, what do you think we could end up giving away to the scum? If we come to a consensus that, say, Charter Member is an unlikely role, the scum might avoid claiming it due to fears that it will look suspicious, or they might deliberately claim it to avoid a counterclaim. That we’ve determined it would seem to have no significant benefits for one side. But by having this discussion, we gain no information about which roles actually are potentially in the game or not, since it’s pure speculation. However, we provide information to the scum in terms of what we are and are not likely to believe is in the game. For instance, it’s not beyond imagining that Ned Gotti is actually scum, but we come to a general concensus that he’s probably town. Thus, if that particular scum comes under fire, he knows he can safely claim that role. > [@](#): > > And as for power roles outing themselves–well, that could happen no matter what we talk about. I don’t see it significantly more likely from discussing which roles might be in the game than, say, piling onto a hapless Ned Gotti. Yes, but by having this discussion we’re enabling them to slip sooner and more easily. We’re also potentially putting them into a rough spot. For instance, what if a role that seems like scum to most of us is actually pro-town. If the person who has it participates, they either have to agree with everyone else to avoid giving away information and make a potential roleclaim later much more difficult, or go against what everyone else said and reveal information to the scum. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying we’re going to find some magic answer if we pursue this line of thought. All I’m saying is that it’s suspicious for someone to close off various avenues of discussion and then dismiss the information aspect. Discussing things is fine. However, at this point, with the available evidence, I cannot see how it benefits the town, but there is a possibility that it benefits the scum. Further, there are plenty of other avenues that we can pursue that will stimulate discussion without giving away information, like discussion about the setup. ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/236 "2008-11-03T20:52:39Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > My powers have to do with being able to extend the length of the Day. However, there has to be a very precise game mechanism that happens in order for me to be able to extend a given Day. The old deadline and extension will not be announced publicly, hence the reason my powers aren’t really confirmable. The only way I can think they would be is is somebody else knows when the day was _supposed_ to end, and the Day didn’t end at that time. > > I’m announcing now to give us a data point to start working off of, and because my power isn’t really powerful enough to effect the game directly (i.e. not investigative, protective, etc.), so it seems me giving a data point will be more useful than holding this info back. I’m NOT saying the power isn’t town - but I could also see that power being something else… and if it is then claiming town and claiming the power seems like a clever move 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/237 "2008-11-03T21:02:46Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > **O mighty Og, are the scum allowed to talk during the day?** > > Worth a shot. It was. > [@ok11](#): > > Second, a prayer to Og: I have a question about the end of the Day. Does it end exactly 48 (or 72, or whatever) hours from the Day 1 post by **mmouse9799** , or will the almighty Og round up/down the time to the nearest hour (for administrative convenience)? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/238 "2008-11-03T21:04:33Z")
What is this something else you could see it being? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/239 "2008-11-03T21:04:42Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > Let’s make things interesting in here, why don’t we? > > I’m Terry, the board’s doctor. > > I kind of think that’s a misspelling (the doctor part, not the Terry part), because my powers seem to align more with what Jerry, the board directors powers would be, and have nothing at all to do with what a Mafia Doctor would do. > > My powers are not confirmable in any way I can see at this time. However, with more information, that might change. My powers have to do with being able to extend the length of the Day. However, there has to be a very precise game mechanism that happens in order for me to be able to extend a given Day. The old deadline and extension will not be announced publicly, hence the reason my powers aren’t really confirmable. The only way I can think they would be is is somebody else knows when the day was _supposed_ to end, and the Day didn’t end at that time. > > I’m announcing now to give us a data point to start working off of, and because my power isn’t really powerful enough to effect the game directly (i.e. not investigative, protective, etc.), so it seems me giving a data point will be more useful than holding this info back. I’m sorry, but I have to say I don’t see the logic here in this move. I would make a suggestion that you try to keep that which you left ambiguous unconfirmed. The precise value of killing you cannot be calculated without knowing whether or not you know the current deadline, what conditions are required to allow you to extend it, and by how much you can extend it. However, I am willing to say that, as boneheaded as I think this is, that I also think that it’s unlikely to be scum motivated. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/240 "2008-11-03T21:12:24Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Hold up…let’s assume for the moment that scum _do_ have this power, and know when day ends. You’re saying that this is neutral/good for town? Are you fricking kidding me? In order for Perfect Information Syndrome to stand out here, the scum would have to make the most blatant plays in the world. Anything less than a complete boneheaded move would have “plausible deniability” written all over it. After all, this _would_ be a very overpowered ability – so much so that I’m guessing it’s not in the game – so all scum would have to do is not go overboard, and they could poke people into banning right before it was too late. > > Hell, that thinking could be applied to _any_ non-killing power the may have scum have – “It’ll show Perfect Information, so we’ll know they’re scum, so it’s _good_ that they have this ability”. Don’t like it… My phrasing was poor on my part. The “neutral/good” part was not in reference to this particular potential role, but to the unknown Day’s end. However, I do think that you underestimate how much knowledge of the Day’s end could show through. Sure, plausible deniability and all that, but really, if you saw someone put a lynching vote, or push for a lynch and the Day ends soon afterward (soon being relative, of course), it will look suspicious. Looking suspicious is often enough for some people to vote, or it’s enough for others to go back and do more investigation. OTOH, a role like the one that **Santo** claimed could be precisely the kind of pro-town role used to balance this sort of power. Perhaps the scum do know the Day’s end, and push a lynch and get it successful, but then the Day gets extended unexpectedly, and it ends with a reversal and a lynching of the scum instead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=13)