# Sdmb mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 30, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198 "2008-10-30T02:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/921 "2008-11-12T14:44:52Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > So your role has a downside but no upside. Hmm not seen that before. DOn’t believe you. The only question is do we lynch you today, lynch you tomorrow or just not vote for you tomorrow then lynch you the next day. As there is the chance you are a killing role I am up for offing you right now. What does everyone else think? Why waste a lynch on him unless he survives being not-voted? We don’t have all that many lynches to be throwing around - I say we risk whatever his night action may be and don’t vote for him now, see what happens Tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/922 "2008-11-12T14:46:45Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > You’re kidding, right? You’ve never seen a Miller, a town role that investigates as scum? You’ve never seen a compulsory Vig (true, it -can- have an upside, but doesn’t more often than not)? You’ve never seen a Paranoid Doc (which, again, has a bit of an upside, but is quite mitigated? [I’m thinking of the type that has a 50/50 shot of protecting or killing their target, not the kind that blocks and protects]). You’ve never seen Lovers who don’t know each other (and therefore aren’t confirmable)? And, **Total Lost** ’s favorite, you’ve never seen a Sore Jawed James Bond, who is instantly mod killed if he makes any post in the game? fair enough on the Miller but a doc who has a 50/50 kill or protect does have an upside, when his power is successful same for compulsory vig Lovers, no don’t know that role also never seen the James Bond thing you mention. Still finding Nanook very suspicious ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/923 "2008-11-12T15:01:03Z")
Dawn +68 and still no sign of Day’s End. But here’s a vote count to cheer you all up.JSexton : 7 (BS PI, Zsofia, Rapier42, Hal Briston, Pleonast, Nanook o/t North Shore, ok11) Zeriel : 6 (Kat, amrussell, JSexton, Hero from Sector 7G, Pedescrobe, Blaster Master) Hal Briston : 3 (Oredigger, ShadowFacts, Zeriel) Zsofia : 1 (Total Lost) ok11 : 1 (OaOW) ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/924 "2008-11-12T15:06:41Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > I might as well open up my magic bag. My powers are…non-existant. But what about all those hints you were dropping I hear you say? I was trying to get the scum to NK me, since I’m much more useful to Town as a sacrificial lamb taking them away from killing someone useful. Why do that? Because really, I’m on a clock here. Best case scenario, I could survive what, 6 or 7 more Days max? Better to try and convince the scum I make a good NK target and waste one on me. Obviously this has backfired in a paticularly heinous way. I’m sure now half of you will be screaming to lynch me, under the idea of lynch all liars and all that, but that would be a mislynch I think, simply because I’m going to die before much longer anyways. But not Today. > > . . . > > Yes, I can vote for myself and have it count. I didn’t want to use it this early, but you do what you gotta do ya know. So let me get this straight you’re a town role that has to get a different person’s attention every day to vote for you but has no power, yep that sounds like a troll to me. I think the town needs to take a DNFTT attitude from now until we see if **Nanook’s** vote actually counts. I think this might be a gambit to get us to pile on with votes because what troll can survive on only his own attention. > [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > You’re kidding, right? You’ve never seen a Miller, a town role that investigates as scum? You’ve never seen a compulsory Vig (true, it -can- have an upside, but doesn’t more often than not)? You’ve never seen a Paranoid Doc (which, again, has a bit of an upside, but is quite mitigated? [I’m thinking of the type that has a 50/50 shot of protecting or killing their target, not the kind that blocks and protects]). You’ve never seen Lovers who don’t know each other (and therefore aren’t confirmable)? And, **Total Lost** ’s favorite, you’ve never seen a Sore Jawed James Bond, who is instantly mod killed if he makes any post in the game? I don’t think I’ve seen any of these roles in action although I’ve heard of most of them. Are you trying to imply that you think **Nanook** is a pro-town role that besides his side has to act like scum? Because based on the amount of distraction he has caused I don’t see what benefit he has given us except for the number of posts about him to analyze. It was obvious that scum we’re going to kill him because he was creating the chaos that they need to hide in so unless he claimed some actual powers his gambit would never have worked. the only reason that I’m holding off voting for him is that I’m not sure what else about his role he’s lied about and we still may get a two-for today. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/925 "2008-11-12T15:28:03Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > fair enough on the Miller > [@](#): > > but a doc who has a 50/50 kill or protect does have an upside, when his power is successful I said as much. > [@](#): > > same for compulsory vig Usually given as a net downside, as I said. > [@](#): > > Lovers, no don’t know that role Basically, they’re connected at the hip. When one dies, the other goes with them. > [@](#): > > also never seen the James Bond thing you mention. Me neither. My point is there are plenty of town orientated roles that aren’t a net benefit to the town. > [@](#): > > Still finding Nanook very suspicious I’m more confused that suspicious. > [@Oredigger77](#): > > I don’t think I’ve seen any of these roles in action although I’ve heard of most of them. Are you trying to imply that you think **Nanook** is a pro-town role that besides his side has to act like scum? I’m not too happy about the magic bag of no powers, but before that I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt. > [@](#): > > It was obvious that scum **we’re** going to kill him… Will you Masons please quit saying scummy things? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/926 "2008-11-12T15:38:44Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Actually it was Roosh, not Blam, that hated shoes originally. > > Pedescribe, let me apologize to you too. (I seem to be doing that a lot this game.) I didn’t indicate the masons on my notes and forgot that you were one. This is why I suck when I’m town. I’m terrible at making cases against people, and at least half the time when I’m sure someone is scum they aren’t, and vice versa. I prefer being scum where I can use the extra knowledge to attack other people’s cases as necessary and just try and defend myself. > > I might as well open up my magic bag. My powers are…non-existant. But what about all those hints you were dropping I hear you say? I was trying to get the scum to NK me, since I’m much more useful to Town as a sacrificial lamb taking them away from killing someone useful. Why do that? Because really, I’m on a clock here. Best case scenario, I could survive what, 6 or 7 more Days max? Better to try and convince the scum I make a good NK target and waste one on me. Obviously this has backfired in a paticularly heinous way. I’m sure now half of you will be screaming to lynch me, under the idea of lynch all liars and all that, but that would be a mislynch I think, simply because I’m going to die before much longer anyways. But not Today. > > **Unvote Jsexton > Vote Nanook of the North Shore > Unvote Nanook of the North Shore > Vote JSexton** > > Yes, I can vote for myself and have it count. I didn’t want to use it this early, but you do what you gotta do ya know. Wow, if you’re telling the truth, this is an extraordinarily anti-town move. How was going “I need people to vote for me, and I have special powers but I’m not going to tell you” suppose to get the scum to target you? You DO realize that scum are highly unlikely to target people that are under a lot of attention right? Look at it this way. You made the claim and almost got lynched. Scum won’t kill you because you’re under a lot of suspicion. Town then decides to test your claim and let you die or lynch you tomorrow. Either way you’re dead, so if you’re not scum, they have no reason to target you. Now, rather than explaining and providing a claim, you give a half-assed “I was pulling a gambit” and potentially remove the town’s ability to decide if it trusts your claim. This is thoroughly anti-town. I think this is all just a front to try to live a little longer without revealing that your supposed restriction is just a bunch of BS. So here’s how I think we should deal with it: 1. **Nanook** , will provide a full claim, including your role name, screen name, alignment, and powers. 2. No one else should vote for him in the event that this is just an attempt to get other people to vote for him, as someone else pointed out. 3. If we have a Vigilante, I might suggest that you give some serious consideration to targetting **Nanook** tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/927 "2008-11-12T15:41:42Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > You’re kidding, right? You’ve never seen a Miller, a town role that investigates as scum? You’ve never seen a compulsory Vig (true, it -can- have an upside, but doesn’t more often than not)? You’ve never seen a Paranoid Doc (which, again, has a bit of an upside, but is quite mitigated? [I’m thinking of the type that has a 50/50 shot of protecting or killing their target, not the kind that blocks and protects]). You’ve never seen Lovers who don’t know each other (and therefore aren’t confirmable)? And, **Total Lost** ’s favorite, you’ve never seen a Sore Jawed James Bond, who is instantly mod killed if he makes any post in the game? I’m not following you here. **Nanook** specifically said his powers are non-existant. As it stands, the claim is basically that he has a vote restiction and no powers to counteract it. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/928 "2008-11-12T15:46:55Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m not following you here. **Nanook** specifically said his powers are non-existant. As it stands, the claim is basically that he has a vote restiction and no powers to counteract it. he’s just supplying examples of roles that have a downside and no upside to counter something I said. ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/929 "2008-11-12T16:05:40Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > WHOA! Where did you read this? I specifically remember him saying that he wouldn’t give ANY information about his power. I also don’t recall anyone else saying anything about their powers that’s even remotely similar to that. This stinks VERY badly of Perfect Information Syndrome. More like Insufficient Information Syndrome. See [post 811](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10433253&postcount=811) for my explanation. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The ok11 thing is a bit different, and I wish I’d been around to hold her to it more, the whole semi-mason claim psuedo-gambit really stunk to me. If she saw it as a breadcrumb, as she claimed to, setting herself up to also look like a mason really doesn’t gain anything, but certainly had the distinct possibility of getting the mason’s later to turn on her when they all discovered eachother or, as the mechanic wasn’t known at the time, that that’d know she wasn’t one of them. I don’t agree with you. I think there was plenty to gain if a scum took the bait, and very little risk. I didn’t think that the masons would turn on me, because I’ve never actually claimed to be one of them, nor did I actively set out to make breadcrumbs. Please reread [my explanation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10407962&postcount=441) with that in mind. Do you think it would have been better to make a post after **amrussell** claimed, saying “oh, and just to clear up any wrong impressions, I’m not the 3rd mason”? Also, I don’t like that you’re applying the term gambit to what I did. Gambits involve sacrificing something to get a greater advantage. In **JSexton** ’s gambit, he was willing to risk being wrong about me to allegedly catch scum. He was also risking getting himself lynched. As I explained above, my strategy wasn’t meant to sacrifice something to possibly get an advantage. In the same post, you say to **JSexton** : > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > For the sake of this point, let’s assume you’re town. Is it possible that the whole mason thing that I picked up on was what you caught? I could easily see you seeing her as being some sort of scum investigator, possibly picking up Ped as a mason, and looking for crumbs to try to pick up on. **JSexton** already made [a list of why I was picked](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10431000&postcount=770) as a target; this wasn’t among his reasons. I realize you probably haven’t seen **JSexton** ’s post, so I’m not gonna hold this against you too much, but personally I don’t like that you’re helping **JSexton** justify his poorly-substantiated pick. Also, could you explain why you’re voting for **Zeriel**? Here’s what you initially said about him. > [@](#): > > Interestingly enough, I came out of reading that Day with two primary suspects, Zeriel and ok11. > > The first, I think was largely touched on by others, but I also wanted to note that she soft-claimed vanilla townie at a couple points, while also making a few other “I’m a townie” sort of phrases and makes a point of mentioning that she’s always town and people always accuse her of not being town. This all stinks badly to me of a scum setting up a townie claim later and using those as points in her favor at that time. Add to the wishy-washy nature that others have already pointed out, and she’s my top suspect entering Today. Then, over several posts, you keep pointing out suspicious things about me. I don’t want to spend time linking to all of them, but if you disagree with this, then I’ll find cites later. When you vote in [post 893](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10435897&postcount=893), you don’t add any further justification for your vote: > [@](#): > > First, I mean to put in a vote, so I’ll put it on my current top suspect, so… Ban Zeriel. I’m still about 100 or so posts behind, so I reserve the right to change that if anything else had come up between where I left off and when I catch up. So, you find a whole lot of things suspicious about me, yet you think **Zeriel** is scummier? It comes across as if you’re pushing to get me lynched, but keeping your hands clean. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/930 "2008-11-12T16:07:30Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > he’s just supplying examples of roles that have a downside and no upside to counter something I said. On a reread, I realize I misread your post to which he was responding; I missed the “not seen that before” part. Sorry **Santa** \*. \*Yes, I called him Santa. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/931 "2008-11-12T16:41:00Z")
> [@ok11](#): > > More like Insufficient Information Syndrome. See [post 811](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10433253&postcount=811) for my explanation. He said it was similar to a role in Blade Runner, how did you necessarily narrow it down to THAT specific role, especially since you didn’t play in it? The fact that there was not sufficient information to narrow it down and you did implies that you have extra information that the rest of us do not. > [@](#): > > I don’t agree with you. I think there was plenty to gain if a scum took the bait, and very little risk. I didn’t think that the masons would turn on me, because I’ve never actually claimed to be one of them, nor did I actively set out to make breadcrumbs. Please reread [my explanation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10407962&postcount=441) with that in mind. Do you think it would have been better to make a post after **amrussell** claimed, saying “oh, and just to clear up any wrong impressions, I’m not the 3rd mason”? That’s not what I said. There’s not an advantage to a town pretending to be a mason, because scum will not claim mason unless they have good reason to believe that they aren’t there while the town does not OR the town is in or near a lylo situation. My concern was that, if the chain had gotten broken, and **Oredigger** hadn’t claimed before **amrussell** was killed, you’d have been in prime position to claim mason, especially since **Pedescribe** already believed that you were one. IOW, chance of you catching scum with that is virtually nil, but there was a scum advantage to laying seeds for claiming mason. Not a smoking gun, but certainly a point where I think scum motivation is greater than town motivation. > [@](#): > > Also, I don’t like that you’re applying the term gambit to what I did. Gambits involve sacrificing something to get a greater advantage. In **JSexton** ’s gambit, he was willing to risk being wrong about me to allegedly catch scum. He was also risking getting himself lynched. As I explained above, my strategy wasn’t meant to sacrifice something to possibly get an advantage. How is a non-mason representing as a mason NOT a gambit? If you’re pro-town, you run the risk of being caught in your deception and getting lynched. Granted, the risk you made wasn’t nearly as high as **JSexton** ’s, but it was a risk nonetheless. > [@](#): > > In the same post, you say to **JSexton** : > > **JSexton** already made [a list of why I was picked](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10431000&postcount=770) as a target; this wasn’t among his reasons. I realize you probably haven’t seen **JSexton** ’s post, so I’m not gonna hold this against you too much, but personally I don’t like that you’re helping **JSexton** justify his poorly-substantiated pick. First of all, I’d already stated it by that time, so it’s not like it was news to anyone. Second, I hadn’t read his justification yet. All I’d read at that point was that he saw some fishy stuff and wanted to test you, but hadn’t given any reasons yet. If he’d been suspicious of the same thing, it would have lent some validation to my initial read. Either way, it doesn’t matter because I laid out reasons why I think his gambit is just plain dumb as both town or scum and I think the votes for him at this point are more punishment for making a bad move than for making a scummy move. > [@](#): > > Also, could you explain why you’re voting for **Zeriel**? Here’s what you initially said about him. > > Then, over several posts, you keep pointing out suspicious things about me. I don’t want to spend time linking to all of them, but if you disagree with this, then I’ll find cites later. > > When you vote in [post 893](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10435897&postcount=893), you don’t add any further justification for your vote: > > So, you find a whole lot of things suspicious about me, yet you think **Zeriel** is scummier? It comes across as if you’re pushing to get me lynched, but keeping your hands clean. First of all, I intended to vote for **Zeriel** in my first post of the Day, but simply forgot to add it in my haste, my justification is in that post. Second, you were intimately involved in the **JSexton** gambit and I hadn’t fully finished reading through it at the time that I made those posts. All I had was my read of you setting yourself up for a later mason claim, but I had several pieces against **Zeriel** , much of which I defered to other posts already made since I didn’t see the point in simply reiterating other people’s points. The only additional point of evidence I’ve added against you was what I percieve as PIS and which you didn’t respond to when first prodded. As it stands, I’m still not satisfied with your response as should be clear in the first part of this post. Either way, it’s not like my hands are clean, I’m not smudging you, I’m being pretty blatant that I’m suspicious of you. Do I need to change my vote every time I point out something suspicious that someone does? Is it not possible that I haven’t been mentioning my main suspect as much because she, you know, hasn’t been posting since I got back and thus I haven’t had anything to analyze, but you have been posting? ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/932 "2008-11-12T16:43:50Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > On an unrelated topic, a question for **JSexton** : > > On what basis are you concluding that a) totally vanilla scum in this game are the exception rather than the rule; b) this game has a setup where a particular scum gets sent to do the kill? Like I said, that’s the norm in my experience. (And, as others pointed out, the presence of a Watcher implies people to be Watched). I see now that someone pointed out that the Dope often breaks one or both of those conventions. Interesting. I have only read along with a couple of games here that I wasn’t playing in. If that’s the case, it certainly weakens my read on ok11. I also see now why you all thought so poorly of my gambit, if it’s far less likely to yield useful info on this site. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > For the sake of this point, let’s assume you’re town. Is it possible that the whole mason thing that I picked up on was what you caught? I could easily see you seeing her as being some sort of scum investigator, possibly picking up **Ped** as a mason, and looking for crumbs to try to pick up on. Not at all. I didn’t read her posts as a semi-mason claim at all. > [@](#): > > Gambit make sense, and I support them, but I don’t think this one was as well played out as you seem to imply. First off, you’re almost certainly not a pro-town power role of any importance (eg, why would the doctor risk himself and possibly having to claim over a gambit like that). So that leaves us with vanilla or weak power role pro-town role OR scum. Don’t know fi you missed it or simply hadn’t caught up that far yet, but I have claimed vanilla. > [@](#): > > If you’re scum, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but there are a few possibilities. Maybe you got a doctor lead on her? If that’s the case, I could totally see trying to out her, forcing her to self-protect the rest of the game, and if you’re wrong, pulling the whole “why would risk putting so much attention on himself” line, which you did. OTOH, you are right that scum just don’t do that sort of thing, especially not early in the game and while all things seem to be going well for them. And, of course, if a scum Jsex had a doc read on ok11, wouldn’t I just wait for night and kill her? > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > IME, this has been less true in the SDMB games. In fact, we’ve had several where it’s just the scum that kill and no specific person. Given that we had a watcher killed, I think it’s a fair assumption that the kill mechanic is one where a specific scum was chosen to do the kill, but there’s insufficient evidence as to whether or not we have many vanilla scum. It’s entirely possible that we have ALL vanilla scum and just the killer is chosen, or that the scum have a godfather (who is unlikely to have a target ability) and thus wouldn’t show up either. I realize there are scum role blockers and investigators and all sorts of things, but I just don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that there’s likely to be few if any scum that have no night actions. The only thing that we have any evidence for at this point is that one is doing something, but we know nothing of the rest. I’ll take your word for it that that’s how it often works here. Godfathers generally lose their protection if sent to do the kill, but again, maybe the role is designed differently here. [quote Dude, are you dyslexic? This is the second time you’ve done this Today with mixing up names. 😛 [/QUOTE] No, just very, very tired,. Both my kids have been sick for a couple weeks, passing colds around, and I’m getting little sleep. > [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > I might as well open up my magic bag. My powers are…non-existant. But what about all those hints you were dropping I hear you say? I was trying to get the scum to NK me, since I’m much more useful to Town as a sacrificial lamb taking them away from killing someone useful. Why do that? Because really, I’m on a clock here. Best case scenario, I could survive what, 6 or 7 more Days max? Better to try and convince the scum I make a good NK target and waste one on me. Obviously this has backfired in a paticularly heinous way. I’m sure now half of you will be screaming to lynch me, under the idea of lynch all liars and all that, but that would be a mislynch I think, simply because I’m going to die before much longer anyways. But not Today. Interesting development! As I sadi before, I don’t think Nanook is mafia, leaving town or a PFK. If town, that was a reasonably good way to play it, although it obviously didn’t work out as well as one would hope. The gameplan of vanilla’s is to get nightkilled, after all. As a PFK…well, Nanook certainly has to be lying. I can’t see the mods creating a role that wins alone and has no abilities to back that up, let alone a restriction. I’m still not inclined to kill Nanook today, but the drawback of doing so is certainly lessened. We don’t lose any powers by doing so, only a warm body that is probably going to die at some point anyway. It could be that the potential upside (killing a PFK) is far greater than the potential downside (losing a warm body) and thus is a good bet to make. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/933 "2008-11-12T16:50:37Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > A Vig should only target him if lives through the Day without any votes. Yes, thats what I meant. Obviously thats changed. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/934 "2008-11-12T16:57:35Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > Actually it was Roosh, not Blam, that hated shoes originally. > > Pedescribe, let me apologize to you too. (I seem to be doing that a lot this game.) I didn’t indicate the masons on my notes and forgot that you were one. This is why I suck when I’m town. I’m terrible at making cases against people, and at least half the time when I’m sure someone is scum they aren’t, and vice versa. I prefer being scum where I can use the extra knowledge to attack other people’s cases as necessary and just try and defend myself. > > I might as well open up my magic bag. My powers are…non-existant. But what about all those hints you were dropping I hear you say? I was trying to get the scum to NK me, since I’m much more useful to Town as a sacrificial lamb taking them away from killing someone useful. Why do that? Because really, I’m on a clock here. Best case scenario, I could survive what, 6 or 7 more Days max? Better to try and convince the scum I make a good NK target and waste one on me. Obviously this has backfired in a paticularly heinous way. I’m sure now half of you will be screaming to lynch me, under the idea of lynch all liars and all that, but that would be a mislynch I think, simply because I’m going to die before much longer anyways. But not Today. > > **Unvote Jsexton > Vote Nanook of the North Shore > Unvote Nanook of the North Shore > Vote JSexton** > > Yes, I can vote for myself and have it count. I didn’t want to use it this early, but you do what you gotta do ya know. I know you don’t have any pro-town powers. That’s what I’ve been trying to say! You are a serial killer, who can’t admit to killing powers because you’ve already lied about it and wants to live for one more kill. Here’s my suggestion: Everyone who hasn’t already voted for Nanook, vote and then unvote for him if you don’t want to lynch him today. I can understand wanting to wait and pull off the doublekill, but I just refuse to believe you got stuck with such a horrific role restriction as vanilla town. > [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > You’re kidding, right? You’ve never seen a Miller, a town role that investigates as scum? You’ve never seen a compulsory Vig (true, it -can- have an upside, but doesn’t more often than not)? You’ve never seen a Paranoid Doc (which, again, has a bit of an upside, but is quite mitigated? [I’m thinking of the type that has a 50/50 shot of protecting or killing their target, not the kind that blocks and protects]). You’ve never seen Lovers who don’t know each other (and therefore aren’t confirmable)? And, **Total Lost** ’s favorite, you’ve never seen a Sore Jawed James Bond, who is instantly mod killed if he makes any post in the game? When was the last time we’ve seen a straight up miller? And all those roles have natural upsides and downsides to them. The only restriction-but-no-powers role I’ve seen is Dogberry, played by Cookies in the Gastard Mod game, who couldn’t talk during the day. This was the GASTARD MOD game. I don’t think we’re playing with a straight-up Gastard without him telling us. And Nanook’s got much worse of a restriction than that. I don’t buy it. > [@Oredigger77](#): > > So let me get this straight you’re a town role that has to get a different person’s attention every day to vote for you but has no power, yep that sounds like a troll to me. I think the town needs to take a DNFTT attitude from now until we see if **Nanook’s** vote actually counts. I think this might be a gambit to get us to pile on with votes because what troll can survive on only his own attention. > > I don’t think I’ve seen any of these roles in action although I’ve heard of most of them. Are you trying to imply that you think **Nanook** is a pro-town role that besides his side has to act like scum? Because based on the amount of distraction he has caused I don’t see what benefit he has given us except for the number of posts about him to analyze. It was obvious that scum we’re going to kill him because he was creating the chaos that they need to hide in so unless he claimed some actual powers his gambit would never have worked. the only reason that I’m holding off voting for him is that I’m not sure what else about his role he’s lied about and we still may get a two-for today. Yeah. He hasn’t done anything to convince me he’s protown yet, but more than enough to convince me of his scumminess. Again, I say everyone who hasn’t yet voted for him, vote and unvote him. That way, we can see just what he’s hiding without another huge discussion over this. > [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > I said as much.Usually given as a net downside, as I said.Basically, they’re connected at the hip. When one dies, the other goes with [them.Me](http://them.Me) neither. My point is there are plenty of town orientated roles that aren’t a net benefit to the town.I’m more confused that suspicious. > > I’m not too happy about the magic bag of no powers, but before that I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Will you Masons please quit saying scummy things? 😛 Sure, they’re out there, but they aren’t used very often. And this is head-and-shoulders above Lovers or Millers. What would this be pointed as? -3? -4? -5? If town needed to be balanced out that much, then I wonder what uber-role we’ve got on our side to make up for it. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/935 "2008-11-12T17:07:10Z")
> [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](#): > > I might as well open up my magic bag. My powers are…non-existant. But what about all those hints you were dropping I hear you say? I was trying to get the scum to NK me, since I’m much more useful to Town as a sacrificial lamb taking them away from killing someone useful. Why do that? Because really, I’m on a clock here. Best case scenario, I could survive what, 6 or 7 more Days max? Better to try and convince the scum I make a good NK target and waste one on me. Obviously this has backfired in a paticularly heinous way. I’m sure now half of you will be screaming to lynch me, under the idea of lynch all liars and all that, but that would be a mislynch I think, simply because I’m going to die before much longer anyways. But not Today. Just for the record, if you are telling the truth, I think this tactic is fundamentally flawed. Because of the way you claimed, you caused contreversy, one that cannot be resolved until you’re lynched. This is a boon to the scum, who can prod the nest and hide themselves in the cloud whenever heat comes upon them. Meanwhile, they can kill the most observant and logical players. In my experience as scum, we tried to hunt down the players who were contributing most to the positive lynches. If this meant an open cop, obviously, he’d die, but if we had the choice between a suspected closeted cop, and a very observant player who was instrumental in lynching one of us, we killed the second one. Point being, if you’re vanilla, and you want the scum to attack you, the best way to do so is to find and call out scum. This is nice in that it doesn’t involve any inherent anti-town strategies, and it helps us lynch scum. We don’t need 20 gambits and a magic feather to keep us afloat. We just need to observe discrepancies, filch out lies, and watch for unusual behavior. We don’t need power roles to support us. We’ve had the power within us all along, all we need to do is realize it. Which is why my vote has stayed on Zeriel. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/936 "2008-11-12T17:13:59Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Not at all. I didn’t read her posts as a semi-mason claim at all. Okay, fair enough. > [@](#): > > Don’t know fi you missed it or simply hadn’t caught up that far yet, but I have claimed vanilla. I hadn’t read that far at the time I made that post, but I have seen it now. > [@](#): > > And, of course, if a scum Jsex had a doc read on ok11, wouldn’t I just wait for night and kill her? Possible, but if the Doc doesn’t know whether she’s discovered or not, it’s hard to predict her actions and thus difficult for the scum to determine if they can kill her. By exposing her, you pretty much force her to self-protect and thus marginalize the doctor as someone you know to be useless and whom the town can’t really confirm either way. As scum in M3, we did this, and not only kept her from doing anything but self-protecting, but managed to even get the town to lynch her (although, there was a recruitment factor, so the last part isn’t analagous). Now, I’m not saying you did that, in fact, I think it’s a low possibility, but it IS a possibility and warranted being mentioned. > [@](#): > > I’ll take your word for it that that’s how it often works here. Godfathers generally lose their protection if sent to do the kill, but again, maybe the role is designed differently here. IME, the godfather ability has generally be passive, such that he doesn’t have to target himself to keep his investigation immunity or night kill immunity or whatever. Then again, I don’t think we’ve ever had a situation where the godfather was tracked, so I don’t even think we have a precedent. But yes, you’re right that he’d generally losse his protection if he chooses to kill, but since he generally won’t chose to kill because he’ll generally have less valuable scum to do it for him. Either way, if you had been a tracker and had happened to track the godfather last night, since he probably wouldn’t be doing the kill, I’d be surprised if you’d have seen anything at all. > [@](#): > > No, just very, very tired,. Both my kids have been sick for a couple weeks, passing colds around, and I’m getting little sleep. I was just making a joke with that one to try to keep it lighthearted. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/937 "2008-11-12T17:21:09Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > On a reread, I realize I misread your post to which he was responding; I missed the “not seen that before” part. Sorry **Santa** \*. > > \*Yes, I called him Santa. I hate you, and your family. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/938 "2008-11-12T17:25:04Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Yeah. He hasn’t done anything to convince me he’s protown yet, but more than enough to convince me of his scumminess. Again, I say everyone who hasn’t yet voted for him, vote and unvote him. That way, we can see just what he’s hiding without another huge discussion over this. I must go against this advice. If he is PFK, we have no reason to believe that actually is his role restriction. Perhaps he is a SK who can only attack people who voted for him. Didn’t at least one of the dead last night have a vote on him at one point? I’m too lazy to check. Perhaps he has some other power where he has to get votes to charge it up, or he loses the power if he doesn’t get a vote. Bottom line, at this point, I agree that he’s probably a PFK. That means the he cannot be trusted. If he is PFK, we have no idea what his goal or powers are. So what we have to do is find a way to test if he’s telling the truth without giving any ground to the potential anti-town motivations for his lies. If he’s lying, it’s clear that he wants at least some votes, what’s not clear is why or if his own vote counts. As such, I think we should avoid giving him votes at all unless we intend to lynch him today. Chances are, if he is PFK, his own vote is probably worthless (especially if he can only target those who vote for him, for instance). But either way, I think we should be very cautious about putting votes on him unless we’re intending to lynch him, and I don’t think we’re at that point. > [@](#): > > Sure, they’re out there, but they aren’t used very often. And this is head-and-shoulders above Lovers or Millers. What would this be pointed as? -3? -4? -5? If town needed to be balanced out that much, then I wonder what uber-role we’ve got on our side to make up for it. FWIW, I wouldn’t point it any lower than 0. It’s not actively hurting the town (except with all the noise), it’s just a less useful townie. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/939 "2008-11-12T17:26:06Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > I hate you, and your family. Does that mean I get coal in my stocking this year? ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/940 "2008-11-12T17:33:39Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > When was the last time we’ve seen a straight up miller? Who cares? We can compare this game to past ones all we’d like, but it’s still a new game, with new roles. > [@](#): > > And all those roles have natural upsides and downsides to them. What is the upside of a Miller? Of a Lover? > [@](#): > > The only restriction-but-no-powers role I’ve seen is Dogberry, played by Cookies in the Gastard Mod game, who couldn’t talk during the day. This was the GASTARD MOD game. I don’t think a novel role has to be Gastard > [@](#): > > Sure, they’re out there, but they aren’t used very often. But they _are_ used! > [@](#): > > And this is head-and-shoulders above Lovers or Millers. What would this be pointed as? -3? -4? -5? How do you figure? Why can’t it just be 0? If he’s going to die anyway, how is it really hurting either team? The only thing that’s hurt the Town side is the amount of conversation devoted to the role. At this point, I’m just arguing on general game mechanics. \*\* Nanook\*\*'s actions of obfuscating and magic bagging have made me seriously reconsider his motivation(s). The restriction part I totally buy. The way he managed to swoop up the town into an egotistical discussion of _him_ is what I don’t like, as it’s obvious that is very anti-town. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=48)