# Sdmb mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 30, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198 "2008-10-30T02:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1201 "2008-11-18T21:52:43Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > I don’t feel that **Zeriel** or **Hal** can “prove” the other one being Town/Scum - and I really don’t like the way the **JSexton** -lynch have been used to make them top-voted toDay ☹ Just to be clear - I still think you can see a LOT from vote records… but they don’t tell the “truth”. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1202 "2008-11-18T22:04:36Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Here’s an attempt to make it seem like I’ve got some kind of vendetta against **Hal**. As I explained to **Boozie** , IIRC the last time I played with **Hal** we were scumbuddies. I have no grudge against **Hal** whatsoever, and I’ve never carried a grudge from one game to another on _anyone_. This is pure obfuscation. Maybe it’s that you and I have wildly divergent play-styles and constantly come off as scummy to one another, but you’re seriously beginning to reek to me. I think you’re correct, and you and I were scumbuddies the last time we played. However, going back _at least_ two times before that was nothing but baseless riding of my ass from day one. When I was looking at the player list for this one and saw your name, my first thought was “Whoop…wonder what he’ll make up to go after me this time”. You may not mean to do it, you may not be conscious of it, but you most certainly carry some sort of grudge. Hell, your first in-game post here was a [“mostly random” vote of me](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10400728&postcount=328). You based it on a suspicion that I deliberately misunderstood **BLaM** when there was [no misunderstanding involved](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10396595&postcount=230). The next day, you come out and [vote me again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10431364#post10431364), saying that I “defend[ed] NBC from role claiming, then vote[d] him for soft claiming”. First off, I wasn’t “defending” him – I was just stating that I don’t look at “I’m not vanilla” is not a role claim, per se. There was a soft claim, and at the time, it was my best lead, so I went with it. The next day, hey, look at that, a “someone in the **JSexton** voting block must be scum, why not throw a [vote on Hal](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10451828#post10451828) even though there’s no grudge or anything there.” Finally, there is the [repeated insistence](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10461503&postcount=1163) that I was in imminent danger of a lynch, so “my scumbuddies” piled in to save me. > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > When **Zeriel** voted for **Hal** , it was **JSexton** 4, **Zeriel** 3, **Hal** 3. I’ve posted this multiple times. I’m not seeing myself coming within two voted of the lead anywhere. Did **Rapier** err in his [breakdown of the voting](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10464708&postcount=1194)? So, what I’m seeing is a constant, dogged attack based on very, very little. You’re doing everything you can to hang a townie, and since I’m not feeling the whole “lynch **Zeriel** ” thing (and sorry for typoing you name twice earlier, **Z** ), I’m going to: Vote **ShadowFacts** ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1203 "2008-11-18T22:46:49Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > Just to be clear - I still think you can see a LOT from vote records… but they don’t tell the “truth”. That’s less clear than the post it meant to clarify. Please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1204 "2008-11-18T23:07:30Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > YES! Thanks! > This I got right - and I would really like to hear from anyone else voting for **Zeriel** and **Hal** if they really intend to vote for the ofter “lynch candidate” ToMorrow or if it ends here? If Zeriel turns out to be scum, I don’t intend to vote for Hal. In that case, my vote’s probably going to land on Shadowfact’s door. Similarly, if we lynch Hal, and he turns out to be scum, I’m much more likely to vote for Pleonast rather than Zeriel again. A towny response from either of them doesn’t rule out voting for the other one for me. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1205 "2008-11-18T23:17:47Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > YES! Thanks! > This I got right - and I would really like to hear from anyone else voting for **Zeriel** and **Hal** if they really intend to vote for the ofter “lynch candidate” ToMorrow or if it ends here? If we lynch **Z** then yes I plan to vote for **Hal** toMorrow, notice that it does not depend on what **Z** comes back as. Of course the big qualifier is if someone jumps up screaming “I’m scum” after **Z’s** lynch obviously I’ll switch I’m not that doggedly on **Hal**. If we lynch **Hal** I have no urge to go after **Z** I think that we will be able to see if people were protecting him and go after them. I’m not sold on **Z’s** case anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1206 "2008-11-19T03:40:18Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > YES! Thanks! > This I got right - and I would really like to hear from anyone else voting for **Zeriel** and **Hal** if they really intend to vote for the ofter “lynch candidate” ToMorrow or if it ends here? If **Zeriel** gets lynched toDay, I don’t have any plans to go after **Hal**. The 2 main points I’ve seen against him are his voting in the **JSexton** Incident and the alleged “protection”, neither of which came across as scummy to me. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1207 "2008-11-19T03:42:19Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Maybe it’s that you and I have wildly divergent play-styles and constantly come off as scummy to one another, but you’re seriously beginning to reek to me. > > I think you’re correct, and you and I were scumbuddies the last time we played. However, going back _at least_ two times before that was nothing but baseless riding of my ass from day one. When I was looking at the player list for this one and saw your name, my first thought was “Whoop…wonder what he’ll make up to go after me this time”. You may not mean to do it, you may not be conscious of it, but you most certainly carry some sort of grudge. You may be right about us having wildly divergent play styles, but seriously, whatever has happened in this game or past, I really, truly have no grudge against you, unconscious or otherwise. It’s all just a game from my end, and that’s the way I play it. Please feel free to accuse me of whatever you want and vote me or whatever, but there is no grudge, and I enjoy playing mafia with you. With regard to the rest of the game, it looks like \*\*Zeriel \*\*is probably going to go. If he turns up scum, well, I’ll probably be lynched, but I’m OK with that. I tried my best, and after my alignment is revealed I hope people put as much effort into analyzing who was against me as I’ve put in toDay. ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1208 "2008-11-19T07:38:47Z")
> [@Santo\_Rugger](#): > > That’s less clear than the post it meant to clarify. Please elaborate. I think you can base the analysis of a player on how they vote, their reasons and what they write. In that way the vote record is a very good instrument. BUT I don’t think the vote record alone is enough to tell if someone is Town/Scum. Every vote - taken individual - can be see as scum-motivated. As both **Zeriel** and **Hal** got a lot of votes yesterDay I believe a lot of players have reason to think they might be scum - and if they want to vote for them based on that - fine by me. I don’t see them as very scumme right now. But I might later. I don’t like it - when a vote is being placed solely based on the vote records. And the “we need information let’s lynch the leading vote-candadates for yesterDay” is just not a substantially reason IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1209 "2008-11-19T13:49:52Z")
The sad thing is that at this point I’m not really offering much of a defense because I’m vanilla, and I’d rather myself die than potentially force a late-day claim or something if the next player in line happens to be one. Another consequence of the variable hidden day length–low-value townies are more likely to roll over and die. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1210 "2008-11-19T14:58:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The sad thing is that at this point I’m not really offering much of a defense because I’m vanilla, and I’d rather myself die than potentially force a late-day claim or something if the next player in line happens to be one. Another consequence of the variable hidden day length–low-value townies are more likely to roll over and die. **Zeriel** , I know exactly how you feel and was feeling similarly enervated last night. But if you really are Town, rolling over is exactly what Scum want you to do. If you are Town, then you know the arguments being used against you are either wrong or bogus, so fight it. Don’t let the bastards grind you down. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1211 "2008-11-19T15:48:42Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > **Zeriel** , I know exactly how you feel and was feeling similarly enervated last night. But if you really are Town, rolling over is exactly what Scum want you to do. If you are Town, then you know the arguments being used against you are either wrong or bogus, so fight it. Don’t let the bastards grind you down. I’d slightly disagree. Just because the player being lynched is Town does not mean the arguments against them are necessarily wrong or false. We’ve all made mistakes as Townies that basically force our teammates to lynch us. It’s one of the ways of enforcing Townie behavior. (It can also encourage anti-Town behavior like lurking.) Sometimes it’s best for a Townie to let themself be lynched without additional distracting drama. Please, point out who you think is showing scum motivation, but trying to defend oneself against the bandwagon can mean your important ideas get drowned out in a sea of counter arguments and accusations. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1212 "2008-11-19T16:39:19Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’d slightly disagree. Just because the player being lynched is Town does not mean the arguments against them are necessarily wrong or false. We’ve all made mistakes as Townies that basically force our teammates to lynch us. It’s one of the ways of enforcing Townie behavior. (It can also encourage anti-Town behavior like lurking.) > > Sometimes it’s best for a Townie to let themself be lynched without additional distracting drama. Please, point out who you think is showing scum motivation, but trying to defend oneself against the bandwagon can mean your important ideas get drowned out in a sea of counter arguments and accusations. I see where you’re coming from, but do you believe that **Zeriel** has made an egregious error in this game that obligates us to lynch him or are you just talking general principles? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1213 "2008-11-19T16:46:27Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I see where you’re coming from, but do you believe that **Zeriel** has made an egregious error in this game that obligates us to lynch him or are you just talking general principles? General principles, in response to your comment to go down fighting. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1214 "2008-11-19T17:07:19Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > General principles, in response to your comment to go down fighting. Well, then, in a general principles way, I agree with you that there are situations where it would be pro-town to accept the inevitable. In this particular case, I would still advocate for fighting until the last breath. What do you think about this particular situation? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1215 "2008-11-19T17:21:19Z")
In **Zeriel** ’s case, I believe he’s scum. The voting patterns are suspicious (it’s too Early for me to formalize this, but I will Tomorrow); I’m not willing to change my vote. If I’m wrong and he is Town, then I’m not sure how he could convince me to change my vote. It’s not based on any specific actions he took, but on the actions of others concerning him. The most pro-Town thing he could do is lay out his thoughts for us to read once he’s lynched. The more accessible and understandable this is, the easier it will be for the rest of us to make use of it. If the lynch confirms him, then we’ll have some trustable information. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1216 "2008-11-19T18:52:42Z")
Zeriel : 5 (Kat, Boozahol Squid P.I., Pleonast, Amrussell, Blaster Master) Hal Briston : 4 (ShadowFacts, Zsofia, Oredigger77, Fretful Porpentine) ShadowFacts : 2 (Hero from Sector 7G, Hal Briston) Boozahol Squid P.I. : 1 (Santo Rugger) Hero from Sector 7G : 1 (Total Lost) ok11 : 1 (One and Only Wanderers) Blaster Master : 1 (Zeriel) OAOW : 1 (Ok11) ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1217 "2008-11-19T19:03:33Z")
Hmm. Closer than I thought. Has anyone not voted? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1218 "2008-11-19T19:08:32Z")
Yeah, Shadow, thanks for the kind words but you’re getting a FOS for essentially trying to get the townies to waste more time on me instead of starting on looking for more scum. Discussing me is pointless at this point–my style is aggressive and occasionally careless and I look scummy as a result. I accept that to a point. So let’s hear some talk about some other people. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1219 "2008-11-19T19:11:29Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Zeriel : 5 (Kat, Boozahol Squid P.I., Pleonast, Amrussell, Blaster Master) > Hal Briston : 4 (ShadowFacts, Zsofia, Oredigger77, Fretful Porpentine) > ShadowFacts : 2 (Hero from Sector 7G, Hal Briston) > Boozahol Squid P.I. : 1 (Santo Rugger) > Hero from Sector 7G : 1 (Total Lost) > ok11 : 1 (One and Only Wanderers) > Blaster Master : 1 (Zeriel) > OAOW : 1 (Ok11) Looks like **Rapier42** is the only one without a vote. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1220 "2008-11-19T19:13:51Z")
I don’t like ShadowFacts because his analysis of the voting patterns focused on Hal and ignored me, and that felt like I was getting set up to be conspicous by my absence, regardless of whether or not he could follow up and make himself look good by formalizing that he thought the tipping point was when Hal and I were tied. I don’t like Blaster Master, because I think he’s trying to push this vote analysis thing when there’s not really any actual pattern to it in terms of anyone getting saved or covered. I would not be overly surprised to find out he’s bussing ShadowFacts a bit with his suspicions, too. Kat’s suspicious because she’s not playing much and she’s been latched onto me for, as far as I can tell, the fact I read Hero, voted for him, then unvoted him when I read further and realized he wasn’t saying what I thought he said. And then grumping about my lack of apology–frankly, the thing _I_ find scummiest is latching onto someone for a small slip and then not letting go. Pleo pings me and I don’t know why. Hal and Santo strike me as somewhat more likely to be townie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=62)