# Sdmb mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 30, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198 "2008-10-30T02:29:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1501 "2008-12-02T20:12:18Z")
Ok, so I made a careful re-read of Zsofia. Guess what I found? Bupkis. She’s been talking, but she wasn’t on my radar until Today. In my re-read, it’s fairly obvious why… I don’t see where she’s really taken a stand on anything. She’s discussed strategy, she was part of the Nanook imbroglio, and she appears to have piggybacked a couple others, but I couldn’t find anywhere that she’s really stuck her neck out in forming an original argument. Her vote record doesn’t stand out, either, except in it’s lack of standing out - Day One, she was the lone voter for Kat. She was on the Jsexton wagon Day Two, she ended up on Hal Day Three, and was the last vote for OAOW on Day Four. Today is the first Day that she’s really started talking, and _now_ she’s pinging me something fierce… I’ve already discussed post 1427 - it’s basically a big “I don’t know” and ends with an attempt to change the subject. In 1450, she attempts to defend that. In 1452, she votes Total Lost - as noted, she uses part of ok11’s analysis, ignores the rest, and doesn’t add anything of her own. In 1457, she claims to have explained why she’s not scum (except she hasn’t). In 1468 and 1469, she claims “Technician (Doctor)” and to have been protecting amrussell. 1474 and 1475 she amends her claim to add that she had nothing to do with amrussells fall down the hole. 1477, she doesn’t know anything about the PFK Doctor, and explains her power mechanic again. 1480, declines to specify whether she can protect herself. 1482 and 1483 are more discussion of the PFK Doctor, and her rolename. The vote record is very neutral… I need to go back and have a look at the timing of her votes, but combined with her previous post history, it appears to point to a deliberate attempt to stay nondescript. Todays post record is anything but… Blam appears to have hit a nerve here. Apart from the shady posts that led up to it, her role claim in particular is all sorts of dodgy. I’m very disturbed by 1475 - she asserts that another reason she claimed is so that we would know she didn’t push amrussell down the well… but she brings this up, not in her claim, but after Hero, and why would we even think that of her until she claimed in the first place? Her role type and power don’t line up, for whatever thats worth. Finally, and this is WIFOM, I know, but her claim doesn’t add a shred of confidence in her Townieness… she’s completely unconfirmable, and requires blind faith on our part. She’s got my hackles up, anyway… I don’t think I’ll be removing my vote for her at this time. I think she’s scum. Those of you that have unvoted her - are you now convinced that she’s Town, or are you unvoting for the sake of the claim? ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1502 "2008-12-02T20:17:17Z")
And I’m not sure what to think of Hal’s claim. I need to chew on that. I don’t see where ok11’s comment was that scummy, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1503 "2008-12-02T20:20:14Z")
I got nothing to add. I was on the block long enough without claiming that it was pretty obvious I was vanilla. **Pleonast** is the real test. I am a little annoyed that **Hal** let me squirm and only popped in after a **Pleonast** was gaining votes. I understand that the Doc reveal was probably a key element, but still… I think we are in LyLo and that was too close for comfort! ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1504 "2008-12-02T20:24:24Z")
> [@Rapier42](#): > > I don’t see where ok11’s comment was that scummy, though. The comment in question was “especially since we seriously need a detective to save us”. No, we don’t. My power is a useful asset, but town does not _need_ power roles in order to win. What **ok11** said is a classic scum statement-- it makes non-power role townies think “yeah, if we don’t get the extra info from our power roles, then we have no chance, so I’ll just sit back and wait for them to give me the info we need”. His statement promotes lazy thinking by town. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1505 "2008-12-02T20:31:38Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > **Pleonast** is the real test. How’s that? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1506 "2008-12-02T20:32:16Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > I am a little annoyed that **Hal** let me squirm and only popped in after a **Pleonast** was gaining votes. Yeah, but it was pretty early in the day when you we’re under the gun, so I decided to stay my hand at first. I was hopping someone unknown would garner the lead and I could keep laying low, at least until I uncovered scum. Sorry if I made you sweat. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1507 "2008-12-02T20:35:08Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > The comment in question was “especially since we seriously need a detective to save us”. > > No, we don’t. My power is a useful asset, but town does not _need_ power roles in order to win. What **ok11** said is a classic scum statement-- it makes non-power role townies think “yeah, if we don’t get the extra info from our power roles, then we have no chance, so I’ll just sit back and wait for them to give me the info we need”. His statement promotes lazy thinking by town. Well, ok - to my mind, that isn’t scummy so much as just poorly considered play. The way we’ve been lynching, she might even be right. 😃 But to me, actions aren’t scummy, motivation is, and I don’t think you can be sure that she made that post with nefarious intent. She could make this a lot easier and prove me wrong, of course… ok11, are you scum? ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1508 "2008-12-02T20:42:20Z")
> [@Rapier42](#): > > How’s that? I’m not ignoring you, but I don’t want to answer until we see Pleo’s reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1509 "2008-12-02T20:54:58Z")
> [@Rapier42](#): > > She’s got my hackles up, anyway… I don’t think I’ll be removing my vote for her at this time. I think she’s scum. Those of you that have unvoted her - are you now convinced that she’s Town, or are you unvoting for the sake of the claim? I’ll try to clarify a bit better why I unvoted her. First, my primary suspicion for her was, as you put it, how voting and posting record is very non-descript. This is very suspicious, even moreso since I was pretty much operating under the impression that we don’t have a doctor or detective, and assumed that most of the remaining were vanilla with the likely exception of a Vig. The thing is, being nondescript is also a common tactic implemented by pro-town power roles. If she actually is telling the truth, especially if she would have thought that the scum had a similar impression that I do, then she was perfectly safe from being targetted because the masons were a bigger threat. So where before I saw a significant anti-town motivation for her behavior, there is at least the potential for a pro-town motivation. What do I think of her claim? Like I said, I don’t particularly like it, since it’s untestable, doesn’t jive particularly well with the available evidence. So sure, I don’t like it. The thing is, I think we’re at 7-5 and, thus, at LyLo. Even if I think it’s more likely that she’s lying, we still have four other scum out there. So sure, I find her scummy as hell, but I find **Total Lost** scummy, though less so in the context of **Zsofia** ’s behavior Today, and she hasn’t provided any potential for pro-town motivation for her behavior. As it stands, based on my earlier analysis, I think it’s very likely that one, if not both of them, is scum. But as it stands, I don’t think **Total Lost** can continue her behavior without more justification than IRL problems. I may reconsider a vote for **Zsofia** , but not at least until I hear from **Total Lost**. ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1510 "2008-12-02T23:34:44Z")
> [@Rapier42](#): > > ok11, are you scum? No, I’m not scum. **Hal** , your interpretation of my intent is completely wrong. Furthermore, it’s not even very logical. The things you extrapolate from my statement would perhaps make sense at the beginning of the game, when a role claim by the detective might make regular townies lazy. At this point in the game, there’s no way it could make the town lazier because (1) no one completely believes you yet (2) by the time you earn the town’s trust, you’re unlikely to be alive and (3) based on how many people aren’t participating enough, how much lazier can the town really get? I stand by what I said. We might be at LYLO, and considering how poorly the town is doing, a detective would be an **Og** send. **Hal** , your behavior still doesn’t make sense to me. At the beginning of the Day, despite having a relatively narrow pool of unconfirmed players, you vote for **Darth**. Then you change your vote to **Zsofia**. When you see that **Pleonast** has too many votes, you claim, and instead vote for **ShadowFacts**. Meanwhile, **Pleonast** is still in the lead, and in danger of getting lynched. If you really wanted to save the power role, why didn’t you vote for **Total Lost** , and take **Pleonast** out of the lead? Here’s your explanation: > [@Hal](#): > > I don’t want to risk banning a vanilla, I want to ban scum. Why were/are you so certain that **ShadowFacts** is scum? And why weren’t you that certain at the beginning of the Day, when you voted for 2 other players before him? Why are you so sure that **Total Lost** is town? And if you’re not sure than why did you risk a potential **Pleonast** ban over a **Total Lost** ban? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1511 "2008-12-02T23:44:53Z")
Hmph…I’m getting the sickening feeling of manipulation that makes me _wish_ I were scum, but…you make some good points. Hold up…lemme count the votes… Completely Unofficial Vote Count: Total Lost: 4 - (Hero, Zsofia, ok11, BLaM) Pleonast: 3 - (amrussell, Shadow, Total Lost) Hero: 2 - (Darth, Pleonast) Zsofia: 1 - (Rapier42) ok11: 1 - (Hal) All right…for the moment, **Pleo** is safe, but this could still be warped by scum manipulation. Just to keep things kosher: Unvote **ok11** Ban **Total Lost** **Total Lost** , I really, really, _really_ hope you’re scum…and **ok11** , if _you’re_ scum and I’m being played, I’ll never forgive you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1512 "2008-12-03T03:11:17Z")
I’m considering my options here. Can someone who is voting for \*\*Total Lost \*\*please state the case against her or point me to the posts where such a case has already been made? Post #s are fine, I don’t need links or quotes. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![ok11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8baadc/32.png) [@ok11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ok11)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1513 "2008-12-03T03:53:19Z")
My case is mainly based on the Day 3 final vote count. My hypothesis was that at least one scum would try to hide by casting a throwaway vote. In hindsight, and knowing my own alignment, I see that the only unconfirmed person who cast such vote in **Total Lost**. Before we knew **OAOW** ’s alignment, I was choosing between him and **Total Lost**. Now we know that he wasn’t scum, so if any scum cast a throwaway vote, from my POV it has to be **Total Lost**. ToDay I did a bunch of scenarios, and in most of them she came up scum. I realize that my assumptions might be wrong, but it seems to be another point against **Total Lost** (See post 1444 & 1445). Some links: Here’s my [review](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10454957&postcount=1104) of **Total Lost** ’s posts from Day 1 and 2. There’s a small error in there (she made 14, not 12, posts on Day 1). She [answers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10455212&postcount=1108) my questions in post 1108 [Post 1445](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10518266&postcount=1445), where I say why I’d like to vote for **Total Lost**. **Rapier42** , I unvoted **Zsofia** because I wasn’t that enthusiastic about voting for her in the first place (see post 1445 linked above). I’m not sure whether I believe the claim, but things should be much clear if there’s a Tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1514 "2008-12-03T05:07:51Z")
Ugh. Sorry guys, I’ve been gone for the past few days. I’ve read through the thread, will respond to specific things in the next post. for now, I’ll give you my vote, which should be explained in the next post. **vote: TL** ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1515 "2008-12-03T07:10:12Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > The thing is, I think we’re at 7-5 and, thus, at LyLo. Even if I think it’s more likely that she’s lying, we still have four other scum out there. So sure, I find her scummy as hell, but I find **Total Lost** scummy, though less so in the context of **Zsofia** ’s behavior Today, and she hasn’t provided any potential for pro-town motivation for her behavior. > > As it stands, based on my earlier analysis, I think it’s very likely that one, if not both of them, is scum. But as it stands, I don’t think **Total Lost** can continue her behavior without more justification than IRL problems. I may reconsider a vote for **Zsofia** , but not at least until I hear from **Total Lost**. I didn’t mean to use RL as an motivation for my behavior (only as an explanation for the number of posts). I have been voting for the person I see as most scummy. It was my impression that voting like that was pro-town. I have been giving reasons for my votes and I’m not really sure what you need to “hear from me”. Did I miss a question? ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1516 "2008-12-03T07:20:34Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > **Total Lost** , I really, really, _really_ hope you’re scum…and **ok11** , if _you’re_ scum and I’m being played, I’ll never forgive you. 🙂 I’m not going to insult your intelligence by answering that. But if this is a LyLo then scum might try to create panic by false claims. I don’t know what to make of this right now ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1517 "2008-12-03T10:31:23Z")
**Unvote Pleo** **Vote Rapier42** 1. We’re almost certainly at LyLo; you’re keeping your vote on a claim that you can’t disprove when there are other candidates out there. 2. Your vote is based on a pattern of non-commital posting. Sauce for the goose is a two-edged sword for people who live in glass houses. Or in other words - this is an exact description of your posting throughout this game. In which case, it’s interesting that you think of it as a scum tell. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1518 "2008-12-03T10:58:55Z")
How about a nice 96-hour vote count?Total Lost : 6 (Hero from Sector 7G, Zsofia, ok11, Blaster Master, Hal Briston, Boozahol Squid P.I.) Hero from Sector 7G : 2 (Darth Sensitive, Pleonast) Pleonast : 2 (ShadowFacts, Total Lost) Zsofia : 1 (Rapier42) Rapier42 : 1 (amrussell)Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1519 "2008-12-03T12:00:32Z")
\*\* Unvote Pleo \*\* I’ll need to go back and try to figure out who to vote for - seems like anyone is claiming something right now… What about the possibility that the investigations did give a truthful result? We didn’t even talk about that. ---
**Author:** ![Total\_Lost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e56c9b/32.png) [@Total\_Lost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Total_Lost)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/1520 "2008-12-03T12:11:52Z")
> [@Total\_Lost](#): > > \*\* Unvote Pleo \*\* > > I’ll need to go back and try to figure out who to vote for - seems like anyone is claiming something right now… > > What about the possibility that the investigations did give a truthful result? We didn’t even talk about that. Meant to ask: What about the possibility that the investigations did **n’t** give a truthful result? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198.md?page=77)