# SDMB Modern Diplomacy Game \*anyone - comment away\* **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 11, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488 "2011-05-11T06:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/41 "2011-06-10T01:47:29Z")
Fall 1996 Retreats Map up on Flickr: [http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/5816456289/in/photostream](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/5816456289/in/photostream) Britain, Egypt, France, Turkey, and Ukraine all gained 1 build. Germany and Poland have 2 builds. Cheers! ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/42 "2011-06-10T03:37:02Z")
Technically France didn’t “gain” a build. I disbanded the army forced out of NAV, and I get to replace it. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/43 "2011-06-10T03:38:58Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Yup. I just wanted to point out that your self-satisfied commentary didn’t include, “Because Egypt and Ukraine, the majority of my front, has not in anyway threatened me I was able to not only maintain my gains but move forward.” I can’t argue with that, except that I didn’t think my commentary was self satisfied. It certainly wasn’t intended to be. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/44 "2011-06-10T13:41:07Z")
True enough, **garygnu**. I should have been looking for the word “get” instead of “gain.” ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/45 "2011-06-10T14:42:16Z")
I just didn’t want observers to get the wrong impression. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/46 "2011-06-13T13:31:01Z")
[Map in Flickr](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/5828736226/in/photostream) **Britain** : Builds Army London **Egypt** : Builds Army Alexandria **France** : Builds Army Bordeaux **Germany** : Builds Army Hamburg **Germany** : Builds Fleet Berlin **Poland** : Builds Army Warsaw **Poland** : Builds Fleet Gdansk **Turkey** : Builds Army Istanbul **Ukraine** : Builds Army Sevastopol Lots of armies this time - guess that balances the fleets last time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/47 "2011-06-16T06:15:04Z")
[Map in Flickr](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/5838113027/) Order Results: Britain: Britain: F Algeria Supports F Tunisia FAIL Support failed. Supported unit’s order does not match support given. Britain: A Belgium -\> Picardy Britain: F English Channel Convoys A London -\> Brittany Britain: F Irish Sea -\> Mid-Atlantic FAIL Bounced with mid (1 against 1). Britain: A London -\> Brittany Convoy path taken: lon→eng→bri. Britain: F North Sea -\> Norwegian Sea Britain: F Skaggerak -\> Sweden Egypt: Egypt: A Alexandria -\> Apulia Convoy path taken: ale→lbn→ion→apu. Egypt: F E Sahara Supports A Libya Egypt: F Ionian Sea Convoys A Alexandria -\> Apulia Egypt: A Libya Holds Egypt: F Libyan Sea Convoys A Alexandria -\> Apulia Egypt: F Saudi Arabia -\> Red Sea France: France: A Bordeaux -\> Navarre France: F Gulf of Lyon Supports A Marseilles -\> Auvergne France: A Lyon Supports A Marseilles -\> Auvergne France: A Madrid -\> Portugal FAIL Bounced with por (1 against 1). Dislodged from nav (2 against 1). France: A Marseilles -\> Auvergne France: F Mid-Atlantic Supports A Madrid -\> Portugal FAIL Support cut by Move from Irish Sea. France: A Switzerland Supports A Milan -\> Austria FAIL Support failed. Supported unit’s order does not match support given. Dislodged from mil (3 against 1). Germany: Germany: F Berlin -\> Bornholm Sea FAIL Bounced with den (1 against 1). Germany: A Hamburg -\> Denmark FAIL Failed because Russia: F den -\> bhm failed. Germany: F Holland Holds Germany: A Munich Supports A Milan -\> Switzerland Germany: A Ruhr -\> Alsace Italy: Italy: F Albania Supports A Bosnia -\> Serbia FAIL Support cut by Move from Greece. Italy: A Bosnia -\> Serbia FAIL Failed because Turkey: A ser -\> cro failed. Italy: A Croatia Supports A Bosnia -\> Serbia FAIL Support cut by Move from Hungary. Italy: F Maltese Sea -\> Naples Italy: A Milan -\> Switzerland Italy: F Tunisia -\> Maltese Sea Poland: Poland: A Austria Supports A Milan -\> Switzerland Poland: A Belorussia Supports A Kharkov -\> Central Russian Plateau Poland: F Estonia -\> Gulf of Bothnia Poland: F Gdansk -\> Baltic Sea Poland: A Krakow Holds Poland: A Latvia -\> Estonia Poland: A Warsaw -\> Lithuania Russia: Russia: A Central Russian Plateau -\> Moscow Russia: F Denmark -\> Bornholm Sea FAIL Bounced with ber (1 against 1). Russia: A Gorky Supports A Central Russian Plateau -\> Moscow Russia: A Moscow -\> St. Petersburg Russia: A Murmansk Supports A Moscow -\> St. Petersburg Russia: F W Black Sea -\> E Black Sea FAIL Bounced with geo (1 against 1). Spain: Spain: A Andalucia -\> Seville Spain: F Barcelona -\> Auvergne FAIL Failed. Spain: A Navarre -\> Madrid Spain: A Portugal Supports A Navarre -\> Madrid Turkey: Turkey: F Aegean Sea Supports F Ionian Sea Turkey: A Ankara -\> Istanbul Turkey: A Armenia -\> Ankara Turkey: A Bulgaria -\> Macedonia Turkey: F Georgia -\> E Black Sea FAIL Bounced with wbs (1 against 1). Turkey: F Greece -\> Albania FAIL Bounced with alb (1 against 1). Turkey: A Istanbul -\> Bulgaria Turkey: A Kazakhstan Supports A Volga Turkey: A Serbia -\> Croatia FAIL Bounced with hun (1 against 1). Ukraine: Ukraine: A Hungary -\> Croatia FAIL Bounced with cro (1 against 1). Ukraine: A Kharkov -\> Central Russian Plateau Ukraine: A Kiev Supports A Kharkov -\> Central Russian Plateau Ukraine: F Odessa Holds Ukraine: A Rumania Supports A Serbia FAIL Support failed. Move orders must be supported explicitly. Ukraine: A Sevastopol Holds Ukraine: A Volga Supports A Kharkov -\> Central Russian Plateau ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/48 "2011-06-16T07:38:55Z")
Italy attacking France? You’re both the nations of romance. Can’t we all just get along? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/49 "2011-06-17T14:26:51Z")
[Post-Retreats Map](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/5841987541/in/photostream) in Flickr. France may have had to retreat, but still has significant presence in Spain. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/50 "2011-06-21T13:23:42Z")
[Map in Flickr](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/5856180705/in/photostream) Retreats: Britain: F Sweden to Norway Italy: A Switzerland to Milan Italy: F Naples to Rome France: F Mid-Atlantic to South Atlantic Spain: F Barcelona to Auvergne Builds: Egypt can build 1 unit France must remove 1 unit Germany can build 1 unit Italy must remove 2 units Poland can build 1 unit Russia must remove 1 unit Turkey can build 1 unit ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/51 "2011-07-26T13:39:47Z")
Soooo, did the game stop then? ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/52 "2011-07-26T13:43:54Z")
Sorry, this thread was pretty inactive so I stopped updating it. The most recent turn can be found at: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14055409&postcount=210](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14055409&postcount=210) The Spring 1999 turn is just awaiting 2 sets of orders. I will be away at an estuarine reserve for a large part of the day, but will check my email for orders in the afternoon. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/53 "2011-08-01T14:29:47Z")
Latest turn available here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14087022&postcount=221](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14087022&postcount=221) Turkey is our game leader with 15 centers at the moment, Egypt just behind with 11. My that Turkish-Egyptian alliance is a bear! ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/54 "2011-08-25T13:28:04Z")
Asking the non-players since the players will be pondering their votes. Here’s the current situation in our SDMB Modern Diplomacy game: [Flickr map](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/6072923653/) The latest turn can be seen here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607271&page=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607271&page=5) As well as the current discussion on whether to end the game or not. What do any of the non-participants think? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/55 "2011-08-25T14:51:56Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Asking the non-players since the players will be pondering their votes. > > Here’s the current situation in our SDMB Modern Diplomacy game: [Flickr map](http://www.flickr.com/photos/30973257@N03/6072923653/) > > The latest turn can be seen here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607271&page=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607271&page=5) > > As well as the current discussion on whether to end the game or not. > > What do any of the non-participants think? Would you mind weighing in, wevets? I respect your opinion on the matter. Also, I feel like I should explain the situation a bit. Turkey and Egypt negotiations pre turn 1 were very tumultuous. I tried convincing aclockworkmelon to leave Israel neutral, and he responded with very firm “you’ll have to take it from my cold, dead hands” sabre rattling. Italy was non-existent in the pre-turn 1 negotiations, and only joined negotiations literally hours before the turn was due. My only other neighbor was Ukraine, who I believed would be jumped by both Russia and Poland. Turns out I wasn’t exactly right, but with the info I had, Italy was my obvious first enemy. After cooperating with Egypt and Ukraine to destroy Italy, Egypt and Turkey had a seriously nail-biting few turns of suspicious negotiation. There were several turns I was certain were going to reveal Egypt’s treachery, and I later found that he felt the same toward me. It turns out we were both honest, and Egypt pressed into Europe and Spain while I took Ukraine. At that point, it became apparent that we could surely achieve 2way victory, even against a united Europe. We began negotiations for ensuring that no backdoor last-minute stabs could occur, by agreeing to a DMZ in Europe, and eventual mutual bumps in territories that it would be impossible to leave empty. The final stages of those negotiations had not been reached yet, but I (and I believe Egypt as well) was confident that we could have created a situation between us in which it was either impossible or impractical to stab at the last minute as we wrapped up the war in Europe (and by last minute, I mean the final 3 or 4 hypothetical turns. Before that, and a stab would just start another long, drawn out and uncertain war). Some players think that the agreement melon and I made over the last few turns is against the spirit of the game. My argument is that our strategy, although quite unconventional, is legitimate. The world just failed to recognize and respond to the unusual metagame we presented. We just created a situation between us where either one stabbing the other would not end in sure victory for the stabber. This game is about alliances. Stronger alliances win. While our alliance grew and our suspicions lessened, Italy stabbed France, England stabbed Russia, Poland stabbed Russia, Ukraine stabbed Poland (admittedly unsuccessfully), England stabbed Spain, Germany stabbed France, etc. etc. We are winning because our alliance was stronger than the other players’. We’re going to share a tie among fewer players than is typical for this game, which I think is a better result than the typical, boring 4-6 player stalemates. One response from another player is “we didn’t know you were playing a different game than us.” My rebuttal is that we are playing by the same rules available to every other player. We took risks with each other, and with the other players - especially by pushing so strong so fast and accepting an early lead. As our lead grew, the strategy grew with it, until the treacherous thoughts I’m sure we both harbored made less and less sense. It was a natural evolution of the game, unforced, and could have been countered by players that did not keep assuming that we’d begin to play more typically in another turn or two. On a final note - I bet nobody playing or watching this game will fall for this strategy again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/56 "2011-08-25T15:20:28Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Would you mind weighing in, wevets? I respect your opinion on the matter. Also, I feel like I should explain the situation a bit. Many thanks for your respect, but as the adjudicator I feel it is important that I **not** weigh in with an opinion until all players have voted. I should just limit my comments to: there are many different ways to play diplomacy, and lots of sound and fury expended on what one’s goal should be. The most important facet to me is that players have experienced a range of fun, struggle with the challenge of facing off against an opponent’s dizzying intellect, and excitement at the prospect of what will actually happen when a turn is released (and occasional dismay as plans meet reality!) Vote whichever way you feel maximizes your enjoyment. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/57 "2011-08-25T22:06:30Z")
I said I’d give a more complete explanation after the game had been called, but I’ll go ahead and make it here: Before starting this game I read a bunch of articles online about Diplomacy. People arguing about what “real Diplomacy” is isn’t new. There are hawks and doves, warmongers and care bears. It’s up for people to determine their own priorities in the game. Just because my priorities don’t happen to align with someone else’s priorities doesn’t mean that either of us are wrong. Take the “nuclear deterrent” strategy I’ve used at least once in our current game: I threaten someone with the idea that if they betray me (or something) I will more or less throw the game as I do everything in my power (even at the cost of winning) to make sure that person loses. That isn’t a strategy I came up with- it’s been used in games of Diplomacy forever (based on what I’ve read at places like [diplom.org](http://diplom.org) and others). Surely, if that person does betray me, I’ve got to make good on my promise else I’ll be seen as a dog with no bite in future games (indeed, whether people should even consider multiple games is something that seems to be hotly debated among the Diplomacy community - yet surely the people who came into this game did so with preconceptions about the other players who they might have shared games with in the past), yet I’d no longer be “playing to win” at that point. Repeating, it’s not up to anyone to choose anyone else’s priorities. I’ve decided for myself that winning is the best scenario. Behind that is being involved in a tie, with the fewer players involved in that tie the better. Behind that is a loss. Frankly, whether or not **Mosier** and I decide to shake hands and call it a draw after we potentially defeat the rest of Europe isn’t any of those defeated nations’ concern. If we succeed, they’d be defeated anyway, even if one of us was planning on stabbing the other instead of actually going through with the 2-way draw. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/58 "2011-08-25T22:45:02Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Repeating, it’s not up to anyone to choose anyone else’s priorities. I’ve decided for myself that winning is the best scenario. Behind that is being involved in a tie, with the fewer players involved in that tie the better. Behind that is a loss. Frankly, whether or not **Mosier** and I decide to shake hands and call it a draw after we potentially defeat the rest of Europe isn’t any of those defeated nations’ concern. If we succeed, they’d be defeated anyway, even if one of us was planning on stabbing the other instead of actually going through with the 2-way draw. It does however mean you’ve decided your victory conditions are different from everyone else’s. The other players in this game were not striving to achieve a draw. What if you and I played a game of Connect 4 and I decided without telling you that I consider three in a row a victory and stopped playing after I had achieved that result? **treis** ’s position is justified. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/59 "2011-08-25T22:46:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What if you and I played a game of Connect 4 and I decided without telling you that I consider three in a row a victory and stopped playing after I had achieved that result? If you just stopped playing during Connect Four you’d be surrendering. Drawing, on the other hand, actually has a basis in the rules of Diplomacy. > [@Sitnam](#): > > It does however mean you’ve decided your victory conditions are different from everyone else’s. The other players in this game were not striving to achieve a draw. That’s right. And **Mosier** and I exploited that. There were plenty of opportunities to see the monster the Turko-Egyptian alliance was becoming. A European alliance earlier in the game would have been able to stop us. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488/60 "2011-08-25T22:53:28Z")
Actually **AClockworkMelon** , I won the game. I controlled Warsaw in Spring '02 and I consider that a victory. We can keep playing if you want though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-modern-diplomacy-game-anyone-comment-away/581488.md?page=4)