SDMB Retrospective US Presidential Elections 1796

Hamilton wanted to give plutocrats lifetime appointments to the Senate. One facet of his famous fiscal system was to restrict credit to the “right sort” in a deliberate effort to increase wealth inequality so that the elite could live a lavish lifestyle to inspire deference from their social inferiors. Neither Jefferson or Hamilton had a vision for America that I would endorse but then it’s hardly fair to criticize premoderns for failing to predict the complexity of the modern world.

Jefferson created the crisis. The fact that he thought an embargo might work in the first place indicates his lack of understanding of the situation.

This sounds interesting. Care to elaborate?

More or less true.

Not hard to believe, but, cite?

In any case, I give him credit for what I mentioned in post #18.

The argument is from Andrew Shankman Crucible of American Democracy beginning on page 208. Gordon Wood does not discuss this social motive for restricting credit but see Empire of Liberty page 99:

What we need to remember is that premoderns lived in a very different intellectual world than we are used to so we need to be wary of applying modern generalizations. While I think the concept of “presentism” is little more than insecurity masquerading as wisdom it is true that if you don’t understand historical figures in context then you don’t really understand them at all. In some ways Hamilton was visionary but in others we could be as hidebound as any.

All of that is true, but, if we Americans now, in hindsight, taking into account all factors present at that time and subsequent to it, have to make a retrospective choice between Jefferson (as represented by himself) and his elitist-democratic-populist-agrarian vision for America, and Hamilton (as represented by Adams) and his elitist-industrial-scientific-financial-capitalist vision for America, with all the benefit of what we know now, then Hamilton is the obviously and inescapably better choice.

There are a lot of years between then and now and to the people that lived them they felt just as important as ours do. I’d argue that the election of Jefferson and a Republican ticket would clearly benefit a lot of lower income white families right away (though possible effects on black families in the gradually abolishing North is disquieting) particularly if they could then avoid the federal government’s greatest cock-block ever: the Embargo of 1807. I would, that is, except that’s going to be my argument for the Revolution of 1800 in the next thread. :cool:

I will say that as an individual (rather than a set of ideals) Adams was a much better president than Hamilton could have been. He had learned the patience that Hamilton didn’t live long enough to acquire. Hamilton was eager for war and not just with France or necessarily with foreign nations. Have you read Chernow’s book? He’s selling you Hamilton, like biographers do, but has interesting things to say about Alexander’s military ambitions.

After reading the pros and cons of the two majors, was anybody else running? I’m liking George Clinton because I like his music and Sam Adams because I like his beer, but I’m more Federalist at heart. I guess that leaves me with Jay, because “John Jay all the way!” rhymes.

That would place Hamilton at the forefront of mercantilism, not capitalism.

No, it would place him at the forefront of industrial capitalism, which Jefferson was always against on principle.

Look, if you want the Straight Dope on American political-economic history, read Land of Promise by Michael Lind.

That’s all well and good. Do you have any cites from Taylor’s book that backs up the claim made in Brainglutton’s quote:

For example, Jefferson was against bank paper, but I don’t think he was against investment of saved capital. John Adams was of a similar view on banking.

You can call it what you want, I guess. But the policies of Hamiton were merely practical political maneuverings, not advanced capitalist thought along the lines of Jefferson acquaintances like de Tracy and Jean Baptiste Say. Lind, a historian not an economist, prefers a good yarn to economic brass tacks. Hamilton was a forerunner of Henry Clay state directed cronyism. Laissez-faire capitalism was the advanced theory of the time. Hamilton was a student of British style Mercantilism. His ideas were old.

So, Jefferson read economists? No doubt Hamilton read economists too.

It goes way beyond that. The relevant divide between Jefferson and Hamilton is not between laissez-faire and dirigisme, it is between agriculture and industry, and between smallness and bigness.

Jefferson’s vision was a nation of yeoman farmers. Thank Og we’re not that any more.

And producerism in the political sense has an unreservedly dismal history.

Which ones? Did he have them published? Advocate the use of their texts in university? Develop correspondence with them?

Most relevantly, of the economists supposedly read by Hamiton, are they even known today? Did they contribute to the advancement of economic thought.

Hamilton was a shrewd political operator, no doubt. His ideas were eventually triumphant, and a state-subsidized elite has materialized as was his goal. His ideas led to our ability to create an incredible war machine as Lind evidently celebrates. That doesn’t mean that he was right. That’s like saying the robber who bops you on your head and takes your money is right because he now has your money.

It doesn’t need to go beyond that. Laissez-faire allows for industry as well as agriculture. Laissez-faire allows for big as well as small (Some misguided critics will claim big is an inevitable consequence of laissez-faire).

You can’t even envision a world in which one man’s vision decides the fate of a nation. If you could you would actually understand the better aspects of Jefferson.

Of course it means he was right; his policies made America and its people richer and stronger. What more can we ask of politicians?!

Ooh, Jefferson wouldn’t like that!

No he expresses hostility to a “banking establishment”. That’s actually a valid hostility.

But now we have the benefit of hindsight, and we know that laissez-faire is not all that great, and that Keynes was a better economist than any of libertarian school.

How does a “banking establishment” differ from “banks”?

If you’re thinking of small banks v. big ones, banking is one industry where bigger is always better. As Lind relates, there was a long time in American history when banks were not even allowed to operate in more than one state. That was always a bad idea; it’s inefficient.

From your own cite:

So basically Lind doesn’t even address the standard objection. Quite useless.

The two periods of the most robust growth in American history were in the 19th century. Everyone from Karl Marx to Milton Friedman would agree the US was comparatively laissez faire during these periods. Lind says because of the subsidized intercontinental railroads (which all went bankrupt before 1900, the only totally private one survived) these periods occurred. Also, thanks to fractional reserve banking, Hamilton’s sweetheart, we have a slew of panics that mark an otherwise impressive century. Lind loves a good yarn.

Growth was rather more robust in the 20th, particularly after the New Deal. Which also allowed the working class to become substantially middle-class for the first time ever in human history.

Industrial capitalism would be impossible without fractional-reserve banking, which is to say, simply, banking.