I do! It’s an odd little sidelight to the Civil War.
Why is that?
No I’d genuinely like to witness outright support of slavery by the Great Emanicipator being contorted, sanded down, polished, and buffed to appear to be a good thing.
Everyone knows Lincoln didn’t start out opposing slavery. But eventually he did. He had the wrong opinion on slavery at one point, and that changed over the years. He still (probably) held white supremacist views, as most white Americans did at the time, but he came to oppose slavery, and was a very big part of ending slavery.
So pointing out that, at one point, Lincoln did not oppose slavery offers nothing new here. I suspect it’s just an attempt to distract from your counter-factual statements about the reasons for the war (among other things).
You are either ignorant of the fact that the Corwin amendment was passed in 1861, or you are playing games with language. “Over the years”. Nah bud.
Let me give you a factual statement. There is no direct historical evidence that Lincoln helped to get the 13th amendment passed. Here’s another. There is direct historical evidence that Lincoln worked to get the Corwin amendment passed. End of story.
You are mistaken. Read Goodwin’s Team of Rivals and Donald’s Lincoln. The President strongly supported it; the GOP platform in 1864 called for its adoption, and Lincoln encouraged its adoption in his Dec. 6 State of the Union message (submitted in writing in those days, not given as a speech).
Here’s a good overview: Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia
Huh? There are numerous quotes by Lincoln after 1861 expressing opposition to slavery. Further, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863.
Complete nonsense. There’s plenty of evidence that he supported the amendment, and plenty of evidence that it was one of his top priorities. Lincoln said so in his State of the Union address, urging Congress to act with haste on the amendment. He made direct, public appeals to Congress to support the amendment. Obviously, he signed the amendment. Whether or not he made the backroom deals as portrayed in the movie Lincoln, he very clearly pushed hard for the 13th Amendment, and pushed hard to get it passed as soon as possible.
You don’t seem able to look at Lincoln with any sort of objectivity.
Obviously, he did not; Constitutional amendments are not submitted to the President for signature (or refusal thereof).
That said, as cited on this thread, Lincoln certainly did make great efforts to rally support for the Thirteenth Amendment. A word of advice to WillFarnaby: next time, do a quick fact check on your assertions and avoid making ones that are so easily shot down in flames.
The 13th Amendment was signed by Lincoln. This was unusual (in fact, it’s the only ratified Constitutional amendment that was signed by a President), but it definitely happened.
You too. 
Here’s an image of the amendment with Lincoln’s signature by the way http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mal/mal3/436/4361100/001.jpg
I certainly am. Lincoln’s job in 1861 was to isolate the secessionists as much as possible, and to rally Northern opposition to secession on the broadest possible grounds.
The Corwin Amendment made it clear that the slavery controversy was not about marching armies south to abolish slavery in the states where it already existed. (Lincoln had already been saying so for years.) Most northerners would not support such a crusade, and every southerner from Kentucky to Florida would oppose it. The slavery controversy was about preventing the further expansion of slavery. The West was the future of the country, and many Northerners had amibitions for either themselves or their children or grandchildren to farm there. They didn’t want it taken over by plantation owners and slave drivers.
Politicians always try to stake out the center and corner their opponents. The Corwin Amendment helped Lincoln to do so.
Finally, it should be noted that Lincoln’s “support” was little more than a lack of opposition. The Amendment passed Congress before Lincoln took office. Lincoln had no involvement with the debates or votes in Congress. In his inaugural address he said,
From everything I’ve read, Lincoln never in his life supported slavery in the sense of personally believing it to be a good thing. What changed over his life was his belief whether it could and should be abolished in those areas where it currently existed. (cite)
I’ll let you puzzle it out. Now stop posting about moderation in this thread. You can take this to private messages or ATMB if you want.
I agree – this is what I meant that he didn’t “start out opposing slavery” – that he didn’t start out supporting abolition.
Firstly, Donald agrees that “his actions weren’t recorded”, and stories of his involvement were based on “gossip and later recollections”.
Team of Rivals was pure fantasy.
I think it was pretty obvious Lincoln was out for power. He was for slavery when he thought it would keep the Union together, thereby increasing his personal power. He was against slavery when he thought it would increase his power. It had nothing to do with him changing his mind “over the years”. If a politician today pulled a similar stunt, it would be recognized as a political posture. This is why you can’t talk to folks about Lincoln. They refuse to accept what all of the evidence says about Lincoln. He was a common politician who wanted power. He also happened to be suffering from some sort of disease of the mind. Which was unfortunate.
IOW he spoke. This doesn’t contradict my claim, bud. There is no evidence he helped.
Of course not. He was a slavery supporting, white supremacist, warmonger. At the same time there is a temple in his honor. Any person with a temple is not being looked at with objectivity.
As I stated. There is no evidence he helped.
If I had a pen and access to the thing I could sign it too. Doesn’t mean I helped it pass.
He did – read What Lincoln Believed: The Values and Convictions of America’s Greatest President, by Michael Lind. Toward the end of his life he was considering extending the voting franchise to the “more intelligent” blacks, while not proposing any intelligence test for whites, and he was still considering “colonization,” i.e., deporting all free blacks from the U.S. to a colony in Africa or Latin America – he believed they had the capacity for democratic self-government, but not in the same society as white people. He dropped the colonization idea after General McClellan did a study and reported that if all the naval and merchant shipping of the U.S. were drafted for the project, it still could not deport blacks “one-half so quickly as negro children will be born here.”
Yes, he believed blacks to be mentally inferior, but not that that justified using them as property. I recall a bit from one of his speeches: “You say the negroes should be slaves because they are black? Have a care! By that argument you are liable to be enslaved by the next man you meet who is fairer than you! Oh, you say, it is not the color, it is because of their inferior intelligence? Have a care! By that argument you are bound to be enslaved by the next man you meet who is more intelligent than you!”
You might be able to read the mind of a dead man, but based on what he said and what he wrote, it’s pretty reasonable to believe that his opinions on slavery and abolition actually changed.
Even if this is true, who cares? Supporting the right thing is better than supporting the wrong thing, even if it’s political pressure that caused one’s opinions to shift.
You’re describing yourself. He publicly advocated for the 13th amendment, including during his State of the Union address.
Complete nonsense – one can twist this logic to claim that he never “helped” defeat the Confederacy, or he never “helped” himself get elected! Most of what Presidents do is ‘speak’.
He spoke publicly in favor of the 13th Amendment, which is about the most he could possibly do publicly (and the most he could do that would survive in the historical records) to support its passage.
Through most of his Presidency this is false.
He was a white supremacist – I’ll give you that. Not a warmonger, though – he just reacted as appropriate when criminals attack US soldiers.
Your description – slavery supporting, white supremacist, warmongers, fits the leaders of the Confederacy on the nose.
You’re the one here, ignoring actual history, who’s not looking at Lincoln with objectivity.
Nonsense. See above. He helped as much as he was able.
I suppose that also goes for Thomas Jefferson?
A vote for Lincoln, as explained by a Connecticut voter in 1860 (made up by me, not a real quote):
It seems to be the aim of the Southern states to expand slavery for ever. A free man cannot enjoy true economic freedom in a slave state; much labor would be done by slaves, thus depriving him of the chance to work and much land would be owned by already-wealthy slave owners, thus depriving him of chance to farm his own land. The recent Supreme-Court case involving Mr. Dred Scott allows slave owners to bring their slaves into co-called free states. This might, in essence, make the whole Union into a slave nation, causing this loss of opportunity for free men. In order to preserve Liberty for free men we must put limitations on the future spread of slavery, keeping it confined to those states where it already exists, just as Mr. Lincoln proposes.
The same man a few years later might have argued that ending slavery was a just aim in the war, but there was little of such sentiment in 1860. Connecticut in the American Civil War focuses a lot on that shift in sentiment (an interesting read if you can get your hands on it).