# SDMB Retrospective US Presidential Elections 1944 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 19, 2014, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475 "2014-04-19T07:15:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/21 "2014-04-23T17:14:32Z")
True. But we did know that we needed them because of the existential threat that Communism appeared to be at the time. If we can side with Stalin over Hitler, we can certainly side with Chiang and Rhee over Mao and Stalin. In fact, it was absolutely necessary that we do so. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/22 "2014-04-23T17:52:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True. But we did know that we needed them because of the existential threat that Communism appeared to be at the time. If we can side with Stalin over Hitler, we can certainly side with Chiang and Rhee over Mao and Stalin. In fact, it was absolutely necessary that we do so. You are assuming that the Cold War was worth fighting at all. It wasn’t. Neither rollback nor containment was a reasonable or necessary policy. If we had simply ignored the Soviets, they would not now be ruling France or Britain. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/23 "2014-04-23T18:09:27Z")
That wasn’t known at the time. Both supporters and haters of COmmunism thought it was the wave of the future. THe disagreement wasn’t over whether the Commies were winning, it was whether to fight them or accomodate them. It wasn’t until the 80s that some of the smarter folks figured out that the Communist bloc was a rusting empty husk. And even then most analysts thought the idea of a world without the Eastern bloc was pure fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/24 "2014-04-23T18:09:52Z")
Strongly disagree, **BrainGlutton** , and I suspect the people of Eastern Europe from 1945-1991 would say the same. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/25 "2014-04-23T18:17:57Z")
Communism in Europe might have survived longer if not for the pressures caused by the Cold War. A Soviet UNion that didn’t have to compete with us in the space program, military buildup, or fighting proxy wars might have survived somewhat longer, maybe even long enough to reform on their own terms like China. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/26 "2014-04-23T22:28:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Communism in Europe might have survived longer if not for the pressures caused by the Cold War. A Soviet UNion that didn’t have to compete with us in the space program, military buildup, or fighting proxy wars might have survived somewhat longer, maybe even long enough to reform on their own terms like China. Sounds like a better thing all around, then. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/27 "2014-04-23T22:46:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If we had simply ignored the Soviets, they would not now be ruling France or Britain. What about Germany? (I must admit, this is the first time that I’ve heard someone implicitly argue that Stalin was a less power-hungry dictator than we typically give him credit for.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/28 "2014-04-23T22:48:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What about Germany? Not WG either. (But Berlin might have been given up.) > [@Ravenman](#): > > (I must admit, this is the first time that I’ve heard someone implicitly argue that Stalin was a less power-hungry dictator than we typically give him credit for.) Doesn’t matter, he didn’t live forever. The Cold War was all about the USSR as a state. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/29 "2014-04-24T13:34:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This is No Ordinary Time and No Ordinary POTUS. FDR’s presidency was probably the worst time in the history of the United States. So no it was not ordinary. FDR was the most power-hungry fascist despot in the history of the United States. So no, he was not ordinary. Anyone who votes a president in for more than two terms should be ashamed of himself. It flies in the face of everything respectable about the American experiment. To compare FDR to Washington is a slap in the face. The US was in a much more precarious situation when Washington stepped down. The US was never under any threat of a mainland invasion at any single point in FDR’s presidency. Japan may have threatened US imperial holdings such as Hawaii, but the US had no business there in the first place. Furthermore, if the US hadn’t projected into the Pacific like ideological madmen, Japan wouldn’t have attacked the US at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/30 "2014-04-24T13:58:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > FDR’s presidency was probably the worst time in the history of the United States. It was a pretty bad time – it encompassed a depression and a world war – but I’d say the Civil War was a worse time for Americans. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > FDR was the most power-hungry fascist despot in the history of the United States. :rolleyes: > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The US was never under any threat of a mainland invasion at any single point in FDR’s presidency. Japan may have threatened US imperial holdings such as Hawaii, but the US had no business there in the first place. Furthermore, if the US hadn’t projected into the Pacific like ideological madmen, Japan wouldn’t have attacked the US at all. :dubious: Are we channeling [Pat Buchanan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War) now?! ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/31 "2014-04-24T15:18:57Z")
Who was more power hungry than a guy who attempted to serve twice as long as George Washington? Who was more fascist than a guy who brought Mussolini-endorsed economic programs to the US? Who was more despotic than a guy who rounded up humans and threw them in cages and rationed the consumption of millions of people? Pat Buchanan and I are both anti-imperialist. Brainglutton, your support of territorial imperialism must be a feature of your unconscious support of mercantilism. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/32 "2014-04-24T15:29:12Z")
I would have voted for Roosevelt, except if I had known the truth about his health. That the Democratic party was able to keep it the secret that it was is a testament to how absorbed with other matter the average American was at the time. Even looking at pictures of FDR at the Yalta Conference you can tell that he is gravely ill and that was rumored from as early as [1940](http://https://archive.org/details/rooseveltinretro00gunt) that he was suffering from myriad illnesses. While Thomas Dewey was an inferior candidate, he was at least would have been a\*\*\* healthier \*\*\*one than Roosevelt was at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/33 "2014-04-24T15:40:29Z")
Tom Dewey would have been a decent President from 1945-49. I’d have to agree, he was inferior to FDR by just about any metric - neither as charismatic nor as politically adroit, although I think he was just about as smart as FDR (Oliver Wendell Holmes described FDR early in his first term as having “a second-class intellect but a first-rate temperament”) and, as you say, he was certainly healthier. He was a talented lawyer who had admin experience as a DA and as governor of New York. Here’s more: [Thomas E. Dewey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Dewey#Governor_of_New_York) No one who knew anything about FDR’s health at the time realistically expected him to serve and survive a full fourth term. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/34 "2014-04-24T16:08:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That wasn’t known at the time. Both supporters and haters of COmmunism thought it was the wave of the future. THe disagreement wasn’t over whether the Commies were winning, it was whether to fight them or accomodate them. > > It wasn’t until the 80s that some of the smarter folks figured out that the Communist bloc was a rusting empty husk. And even then most analysts thought the idea of a world without the Eastern bloc was pure fantasy. Please. Ronald Reagan didn’t invent anti-communism. Woodrow Wilson was fighting communism back in 1919 both domestically and in Russia. And plenty of subsequent Presidents, of both parties, had also opposed communism. There was a major post-war debate in the Truman administration about how to best fight communism. Under George Kennan and Paul Nitze, the main plan was “containment” - stop communism from expanding and let it collapse from within. This plan was based on the assumption that communism could not sustain itself in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/35 "2014-04-24T16:14:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Tom Dewey would have been a decent President from 1945-49. I’d have to agree, he was inferior to FDR by just about any metric - neither as charismatic nor as politically adroit, although I think he was just about as smart as FDR (Oliver Wendell Holmes described FDR early in his first term as having “a second-class intellect but a first-rate temperament”) and, as you say, he was certainly healthier. He was a talented lawyer who had admin experience as a DA and as governor of New York. Here’s more: [Thomas E. Dewey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Dewey#Governor_of_New_York) > > No one who knew anything about FDR’s health at the time realistically expected him to serve and survive a full fourth term. Dewey’s main problem\* was a lack of foreign policy experience. Which was a pretty big issue in 1944. \*Okay, realistically, Dewey’s main problem was a lack of public charisma. A lack of foreign policy experience was his main problem of substance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/36 "2014-04-24T16:27:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who was more power hungry than a guy who attempted to serve twice as long as George Washington? Nixon comes to mind. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who was more fascist than a guy who brought Mussolini-endorsed economic programs to the US? :dubious: Now you’re veering into [Hitler Ate Sugar](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HitlerAteSugar) territory. Just because fascists did it first does not make anything a bad idea. Hitler’s _Autobahnen_ inspired Eisenhower to build the Interstate Highway System. Wasn’t that a good idea? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who was more despotic than a guy who rounded up humans and threw them in cages . . . Not a policy I would think of defending, but remember that it was not unpopular at the time (wartime makes people strange), and that the same charge could be brought against Lincoln, whose actions I **would** defend (the difference being that Cornfed sympathizers were real threats to national security and Japanese-Americans were not). > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > . . . and rationed the consumption of millions of people? :rolleyes: There is nothing “despotic” about wartime rationing. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Pat Buchanan and I are both anti-imperialist. Please remember that the supreme imperialist in this story is Hitler. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Brainglutton, your support of territorial imperialism must be a feature of your unconscious support of mercantilism. I support social democracy. Who’s a mercantilist any more?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/37 "2014-04-24T16:45:35Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > No one who knew anything about FDR’s health at the time realistically expected him to serve and survive a full fourth term. Including FDR himself? That must have made his selection of Truman as VP a very weighty decision. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/38 "2014-04-24T18:32:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Including FDR himself? That must have made his selection of Truman as VP a very weighty decision. Hard to say. From all I’ve read, FDR was a supremely optimistic guy who probably convinced himself that he was virtually immortal. Top Democratics knew in 1944 that FDR was unlikely to live another four years and insisted that Truman would be a better VP than Wallace, but I’m not at all sure that FDR shared their views as to his mortality. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/39 "2014-04-24T18:43:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Including FDR himself? That must have made his selection of Truman as VP a very weighty decision. I would think that if FDR had known that he would live to serve so little of his fourth term, he would have put Truman more in the loop. That Truman was completely unaware of the Manhattan Project is pretty incredible to us now, having gotten used to vice presidents who were active members of the administration. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475/40 "2014-04-25T00:56:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Those were not allies worth supporting at the time either, and nobody at the time had any reasonable grounds to expect improvement. Do you believe in retrospect intervention was the right idea? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-retrospective-us-presidential-elections-1944/686475.md?page=3)