# SDMB to ban Tom Sawyer?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [April 1, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784 "2004-04-01T20:06:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/1 "2004-04-01T20:06:52Z")
This new rule “hate speech” just gets better and better.
Here, **Dr. Matrix** locked a thread because **Green Bean** posted the refrain from The Rolling Stones’ _Brown Sugar_.
> [@](#):
>
> Posting racist lyrics comes a little too close to hate speach to be allowed on this board.
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=4700618&subscription=0](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=4700618&subscription=0)
I assume this means that Othello is also unfit for discussion here, as is Tom Sawyer.
I am very deeply concerned about this absurd “zero tolerance” policy. It has the potential to be far more damaging to the SDMB than any pay-to-post scheme could ever be because it directly attacks what this board is supposed to be about.
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### Author:  [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/2 "2004-04-01T20:14:48Z")
Your link took me to a reply window. Just thought I’d mention it.
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/3 "2004-04-01T20:17:33Z")
Yeah, that’s more than a little ridiculous ( assuming your description of the action is correct - your link seems screwy ).
That said, why isn’t there a “charter member” tag under your name **Truth Seeker** :)?
- Tamerlane
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### Author:  [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/4 "2004-04-01T20:24:27Z")
Hmm. Let’s try that again. This should be the thread in question.
> **[racism and rock music (avid rock fans please read)](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=248495)**
>
> Are there any examples of racism in rock or rock and roll music? If so, which songs? (Please don’t give the lyrics if they are racist or questionable) Who has pushed hard for censorship in music? (Besides tipper gore) Finally, why is there...
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### Author:  [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/5 "2004-04-01T20:38:34Z")
You can call a person an asshole on the radio, but you can’t refer to it in the physical sense, like “I was wiping my asshole the other day”. Same thing here, generally speaking. I can say cracker. See I just did, I like saltines. Now if I were to call someone that it would be “hate speech”. I think the intent is the main issue. People have been banned for blatant hate speech, and I don’t think anyone here would have a problem with that. Intent is a very grey area though, subject to interpretation and debate. **Drmatrix** didn’t ban anyone for that particular thread right? The OP basically asked for people to list all of the rascist lyrics they could think of, is that fighting ignorance? I think not. A list of words that can never be used is not the answer, as referenced in the OP for this thread. If moderators aren’t doing an adequate job in some people’s opinion, what’s left? Voting? I think the don’t be a jerk rule implies “don’t use racist terms as an attack on a person or a people”. Key word there is attack, that’s where the hate comes in. You should be able to quote Tom Sawyer all day long, that’s literary discussion. If someone disagrees with you and you lash out at them with a racist remark, nothing is gained. I think we’re all smart enough here to know the difference between right and wrong.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/6 "2004-04-01T20:40:08Z")
> [@Dr. Matrix](#):
>
> General Questions is for questions with factual answers.
>
> Posting racist lyrics comes a little too close to hate speach to be allowed on this board. We would allow a debate over why there is censorship, but not in this forum. Great Debates is our forum for debates. Please feel free to open a thread in Great Debates.
>
> This is closed.
What the fuck are you talking about, **Truth Seeker**?
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/7 "2004-04-01T20:41:04Z")
Ah, well I’m not sure that is so clear-cut. I agree with **Dr. Matrix** that was perhaps the wrong forum for that question. As phrased only part of it had a factual answer and it was clearly calling for debate.
As far as the lyrics, I agree that nothing posted there should be regarded as verboten, but I _would_ be willing to give the mederators some slack on a case-by-case basis if someone was posting some really obnoxious hammer-skin-type junk for no good reason. And the good doc never mentioned “Brown Sugar” by name - he may have been trying to be pre-emptive ( though, again, I don’t think a blanket “zero tolerance” ban is warranted ).
So I sorta half-agree with you, half don’t.
- Tamerlamne
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### Author:  [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/8 "2004-04-01T21:03:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The OP basically asked for people to list all of the rascist lyrics they could think of, is that fighting ignorance?
Actually, the OP in that thread specifically asked people **not** to post racist lyrics.
From the orginal OP,
> [@](#):
>
> Are there any examples of racism in rock or rock and roll music? If so, which songs? **(Please don’t give the lyrics if they are racist or questionable)**
My emphasis.
> [@](#):
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> I agree with Dr. Matrix that was perhaps the wrong forum for that question. As phrased only part of it had a factual answer and it was clearly calling for debate.
If **Dr. M** had simply said “Off to Cafe Society” we wouldn’t be here. The _ **only** _ “racist lyric” in the thread is that from _Brown Sugar_ so it’s hard to imagine that he’s referring to anything else.
The real problem here is that this kind of thing is death to the vigorous and free exchange of ideas. People should not have to second-guess themselves when posing perfectly legitimate questions.
> [@](#):
>
> I would be willing to give the mederators some slack on a case-by-case basis if someone was posting some really obnoxious hammer-skin-type junk for no good reason.
Quite. That’s “being a jerk.” Posing a perfectly legitimate question is not being a jerk. We don’t need a special “hate speech” rule for that situation.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/9 "2004-04-01T21:15:27Z")
> [@dnooman](#):
>
> I think the don’t be a jerk rule implies “don’t use racist terms as an attack on a person or a people”. Key word there is attack, that’s where the hate comes in.
What about when [defending against such an attack](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247405)?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/10 "2004-04-01T22:16:23Z")
> [@Truth Seeker](#):
>
> Actually, the OP in that thread specifically asked people **not** to post racist lyrics.
And we all know that everyone _always_ follows such requests from an OP, right? Besides which, even if they did, it would make any discussion of the subject pretty much impossible, wouldn’t it? What sort of posts would be appropriate in that thread? “‘One in a Million’ is racist.” “Why?” “Can’t tell you: the OP said not to post lyrics.” What the hell is the point of that?
> [@](#):
>
> If **Dr. M** had simply said “Off to Cafe Society” we wouldn’t be here. The _ **only** _ “racist lyric” in the thread is that from _Brown Sugar_ so it’s hard to imagine that he’s referring to anything else.
Why do you assume **DrMatrix** was refering to anything already posted in the thread, and wasn’t shutting it down to prevent anyone else coming in and posting racist lyrics later on? If he thought the lyrics to “Brown Sugar” were racist, don’t you think he’d have said something about it? Given **Green Bean** a warning, at the very least?
> [@](#):
>
> The real problem here is that this kind of thing is death to the vigorous and free exchange of ideas. People should not have to second-guess themselves when posing perfectly legitimate questions.
Did you miss the part where **DrMatrix** suggested reposting the OP in Great Debates? How is redirecting a poster to the proper forum for his question stifling debate?
> [@](#):
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> Quite. That’s “being a jerk.” Posing a perfectly legitimate question is not being a jerk. We don’t need a special “hate speech” rule for that situation.
Yeah, and posting hate speech is being a jerk. So is trolling. So is spamming. These are all activities the administration has defined as “being a jerk.” How come you aren’t complaing about us having a special “no spamming” rule?
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### Author:  [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/11 "2004-04-01T22:25:07Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#):
>
> What about when [defending against such an attack](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247405)?
You mean “He did it first, so now I can do it”? I doubt it. Such an attack is innapropriate to begin with, and retaliation in kind is not in order. Am I missing your point?
BTW I don’t think AD deserved the warning either.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [April 1, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/12 "2004-04-01T23:14:20Z")
> [@dnooman](#):
>
> You mean “He did it first, so now I can do it”? I doubt it. Such an attack is innapropriate to begin with, and retaliation in kind is not in order. Am I missing your point?
Could be. I wasn’t thinkng retaliation.
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### Author:  [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/13 "2004-04-02T00:07:09Z")
I don’t think he was chastising any poster. I think he was saying that with such a topic that it was eventually going to have racist lyrics posted. He could have just moved it I guess, but he did say go ahead and open up the topic yourself in the other forum. Besides wouldn’t it have still shown a referral even if he had moved it? That may be why he didn’t just move it.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/14 "2004-04-02T01:28:37Z")
Why _Tom Sawyer_, particularly? I always thought _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ was the hill that the censoring types usually chose to die on.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/15 "2004-04-02T02:02:35Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> Why _Tom Sawyer_, particularly? I always thought _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ was the hill that the censoring types usually chose to die on.
Maybe he was talking about the _Rush_ song. 😃
Haj
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### Author:  [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/16 "2004-04-02T03:33:28Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> Why _Tom Sawyer_, particularly? I always thought _The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn_ was the hill that the censoring types usually chose to die on.
_grumble grumble_ Would you believe an extended typo? Anyway, yes, that. I’m _quite_ sure about Othello, though.
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Why do you assume DrMatrix was refering to anything already posted in the thread, and wasn’t shutting it down to prevent anyone else coming in and posting racist lyrics later on?
Well that pretty much makes my point. Not only is “hate speech” verboten, we must actively lock-down any threads that might tempt someone to break the rules and post one of The Words, thereby irreparably damaging our shell-like eyes . . . or whatever.
> [@](#):
>
> Did you miss the part where DrMatrix suggested reposting the OP in Great Debates? How is redirecting a poster to the proper forum for his question stifling debate?
Well, let’s look at his response in toto.
> [@Dr. Matrix](#):
>
> General Questios is for questions with factual answers.
>
> Posting racist lyrics comes a little too close to hate speach to be allowed on this board. We would allow a debate over why there is censorship, but not in this forum. Great Debates is our forum for debates. Please feel free to open a thread in Great Debates.
>
> This is closed.
> [@](#):
>
> General Questios is for questions with factual answers.
Quite correct. Part of the OP asked for a factual answer, part of it really asked for a debate (though possibly somewhat tongue in cheek). The whole thing both factual and debate-oriented would probably have been better suited to Cafe Society.
> [@](#):
>
> Posting racist lyrics comes a little too close to hate speach to be allowed on this board.
It’s hard to debate this point since it essentially defines what the “hate speech” rule is. We can, however, argue that this is **not** what the rule should be. FTR, the only lyrics of any sort posted in that thread was the refrain to _Brown Sugar_.
> [@](#):
>
> We would allow a debate over why there is censorship, but not in this forum.
By implication, we **would not** allow someone to ask, as the OP did, “Are there any examples of racism in rock or rock and roll music? If so, which songs? (Please don’t give the lyrics if they are racist or questionable)” Does anyone think that there is anything inherently “hateful” about this question?
A debate over censorship “would be allowed” in GD (hopefully, this is not news) but presumably, posting “racist lyrics” would still be “a little too close to hate speach to be allowed on this board.”
To summarize, the OPs original question was out-of-bounds and the OP is free to open a GD thread on the question of censorship so long as no one actually uses any of The Words in that thread.
The current incarnation of the hate speech rule is really creating a climate of fear and making people look over their shoulders. This is just so wrong. Take a look at this post in another thread from **GaWd**
> [@](#):
>
> Just so nobody thinks I was making “hate speech” in this zero tolerance environment, let me be clear that it was simply a take on A’s “Salaam.A” signature and not meant as any sort of slur.
>
> I cannot believe that I felt the need to clarify a post in the Pit lest I get raked over the coals or a warning from the mods…A sad day indeed.
It is a sad day. Free inquiry doesn’t happen by itself. It has to be nurtured. Official action can stunt or kill it all too easily, whether it’s by a government official or a mod on a message board.
> [@Miller\[/quote](#):
>
> Yeah, and posting hate speech is being a jerk. So is trolling. So is spamming. These are all activities the administration has defined as “being a jerk.” How come you aren’t complaing about us having a special “no spamming” rule?
That is precisely the problem. Do you think **Airman Doors** was being a jerk in that other thread? Do you think the **Green Bean** was being a jerk in the thread we’re discussing now? Not having a zero tolerance for any word that could be considered hate speech regardless of context **does not** equal being a jerk.
I want to make it clear that I don’t have any problem with **Dr. Matrix**. He wasn’t unnecessarily heavy-handed and was simply doing his best to apply a policy which, for all I know, he doesn’t agree with either. It’s the _policy_ I have a problem with. If this new policy is being misinterpreted or overzealously enforced, hopefully someone will come along to say so. If it’s not, I hope the mods and admins will re-think some of the implications.
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### Author:  [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/17 "2004-04-02T05:02:30Z")
> [@dnooman](#):
>
> A list of words that can never be used is not the answer,
Actually that would be a joke thread and I don’t think they are allowed either. 🙂
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/18 "2004-04-02T05:18:01Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> “‘One in a Million’ is racist.” “Why?” “Can’t tell you: the OP said not to post lyrics.” What the hell is the point of that?
Miller, I thought the OP was asking for leads, if nothing else. As in, “What lyrics are racist so I can look them up on a lyrics website.” Took that from him specifically asking that no lyrics be posted.
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### Author:  [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/19 "2004-04-02T05:43:49Z")
> [@duffer](#):
>
> Miller, I thought the OP was asking for leads, if nothing else. As in, “What lyrics are racist so I can look them up on a lyrics website.” Took that from him specifically asking that no lyrics be posted.
OK, let’s assume that the OP had a factual answer. It would be yes. The “please don’t post racist lyrics” part, is covering his/her ass. This thread was goading people into posting (at the very least) racist song titles, why? So he could research them? I saw no mention of that in the OP, or did you just assume it?
More proof that what people type might not actually be what they mean. I suspect several people have been banned for misinterpreted meanings, they should have watched their step after the first warning.
I don’t remember this site being described as the “say whatever the fuck you want site”, there are however sites like that available to those that might want it.
Free speech should be respected, but if you think that hatefull racism should be considered to be your right _on this board_ you’re wrong. Racism is ignorant…need I say more?
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### Author:  [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)
#### Post date: [April 2, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/20 "2004-04-02T06:53:45Z")
OK, alright! Holy shit, I was just saying what I thought he might have been after. I’ll leave all opinion out of the Pit from now on.
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