# SDMB to ban Tom Sawyer? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784 "2004-04-01T20:06:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/21 "2004-04-02T07:55:17Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > OK, alright! Holy shit, I was just saying what I thought he might have been after. I’ll leave all opinion out of the Pit from now on. I’m certainly not trying to insult you personally. I did differ in opinion with you about the intent of the original post, but I’m not trying to make an ass out of you. Your statement about the pit is actually quite laughable, there is nothing in the pit that is not either opinion, or mis-directed vitriol. The pit seems to be (to me, at least so far) a forum for bitching, moaning, ranting, lesser complaining, and selected dirty/evil talk. Here it comes. I think the pit is mostly (not naming names, cuz I don’t know all the prominent players) full of…let’s see. Self-serving entities who know all, those that will take objection with anything that presents itself, indignant pariahs that don’t know they are in fact pariahs, loudmouth assholes, “helen lovejoy’s”, religious fanatics, racists (sometimes), overly-sensitive people, those that like to get in fights, complainers, angry motorists/diners, etc. It should be interesting, the floodgates are closed. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/22 "2004-04-02T08:12:29Z")
**dnooman** , peace is established 😃 As to the categories of gripes, it’s cuz that is most often what pisses people off. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/23 "2004-04-02T08:24:50Z")
Am I missing something here? Brown Sugar isn’t racist. It’s about racism, as practiced by the Colonial British slaveholders who considered “darkies” to be subhuman, but then poured out all their darker pent-up emotions of lust and violence out on them. It’s irony, but hardly anybody seems to get it. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/24 "2004-04-02T08:26:13Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > **dnooman** , peace is established 😃 > > As to the categories of gripes, it’s cuz that is most often what pisses people off. Thanks **Duffer**. I mean only to gain agreement. I’m sure this thread will make me some “enemies” or at least people who hate me, so be it, that’s not what I’m out for, but I do think that typical pit behaviour is like toddlers (although verbose) fighting in a sandbox of rhetoric. Actually, if the status quo is to be, then I will be forgotten forthwith, nothing happened. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/25 "2004-04-02T09:09:20Z")
Oh now come on, **dnooman** , I sense the Pit force in you. I feel that there is much anger repressed. Express it. (Eric Cartman whisper) “Express it, my friend” You’ll feel better, we’ll feel better ripping you for what doesn’t affect us, and all will be happy. It’s the only rout to happiness. Join us. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/26 "2004-04-02T14:44:19Z")
> [@Fairblue](#): > > Am I missing something here? Brown Sugar isn’t racist. It’s about racism, as practiced by the Colonial British slaveholders who considered “darkies” to be subhuman, but then poured out all their darker pent-up emotions of lust and violence out on them. > > It’s irony, but hardly anybody seems to get it. The question being, of course, are you now in violation because of the use of the word “darkies”? Of course, I’ve used the sarcastic phrase “liberal commie pink faggots” in reference to myself and others in various threads. Very recently, in fact. So…what, exactly, is this zero tolerance policy? Is it an extension of the “Don’t be a jerk” rule? That rule, of course, was a huge matter in the discussions on the SDMB subscription threads. Specifically, that it was too vague and open to abuse and misinterpretation. Glad to see _that_ got taken care of… -Joe, just liberal, neither a commie, pinko, nor faggot ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/27 "2004-04-02T14:53:15Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > I think the pit is mostly (not naming names, cuz I don’t know all the prominent players) full of…let’s see. Self-serving entities who know all, those that will take objection with anything that presents itself, indignant pariahs that don’t know they are in fact pariahs, loudmouth assholes, “helen lovejoy’s”, religious fanatics, racists (sometimes), overly-sensitive people, those that like to get in fights, complainers, angry motorists/diners, etc. You say that like it’s a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/28 "2004-04-02T20:22:40Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > You say that like it’s a bad thing. I should hope not. I fit in there somewhere too. I really meant that you guys were hogging all the fun. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/29 "2004-04-02T22:29:21Z")
> [@Truth Seeker](#): > > Well that pretty much makes my point. Not only is “hate speech” verboten, we must actively lock-down any threads that might tempt someone to break the rules and post one of The Words, thereby irreparably damaging our shell-like eyes . . . or whatever. Yeah, or maybe the mods are just trying to stem the tide of SF assholes that have been overrunning the boards lately, and locked a thread of dubious value that would have been catnip to the white supremacist set. > [@](#): > > Quite correct. Part of the OP asked for a factual answer, part of it really asked for a debate (though possibly somewhat tongue in cheek). The whole thing both factual and debate-oriented would probably have been better suited to Cafe Society. Right. It was _also_ locked for being in the wrong forum. SOP since before I started posting here, at least. > [@](#): > > It’s hard to debate this point since it essentially defines what the “hate speech” rule is. We can, however, argue that this is **not** what the rule should be. FTR, the only lyrics of any sort posted in that thread was the refrain to _Brown Sugar_. And **DrMatrix** made no mention of any lyrics _already_ posted in the thread. Why are you so convinced he was talking about “Brown Sugar,” when even the most hysterical racism witch-hunter wouldn’t have a problem with the lyrics posted? > [@](#): > > By implication, we **would not** allow someone to ask, as the OP did, “Are there any examples of racism in rock or rock and roll music? If so, which songs? (Please don’t give the lyrics if they are racist or questionable)” Does anyone think that there is anything inherently “hateful” about this question? The mods also lock most threads that touch on file-sharing, even if they aren’t about illegal file-sharing, because they have a highly predictable tendency to morph into just such threads. I can see the same issue with this thread, aside from the inappropriateness of the forum in which it was posted. > [@](#): > > A debate over censorship “would be allowed” in GD (hopefully, this is not news) but presumably, posting “racist lyrics” would still be “a little too close to hate speach to be allowed on this board.” > > To summarize, the OPs original question was out-of-bounds and the OP is free to open a GD thread on the question of censorship so long as no one actually uses any of The Words in that thread. Or they just don’t want that argument in GQ. > [@](#): > > The current incarnation of the hate speech rule is really creating a climate of fear and making people look over their shoulders. This is just so wrong. Take a look at this post in another thread from **GaWd**. Well, I don’t really know **GaWd** , so I’m not particualrly swayed by that citation. Is he usually paranoid? Is he an idiot? I’ve seen a lot of right-wing kooks say they expect to be banned for calling Clinton a slimeball. It’s not evidence of a “climate of fear,” they’re just morons. And, for that matter, exactly what did he say to **Aldebaraan** that he felt he needed to make a pre-emptory apology for? Like I said, I don’t know **GaWd**. Maybe he’s a genuine bigot, and said something genuinely bigotted. (And, **GaWd** , if you’re reading this and are not a paranoid idiot bigot, please don’t take any of this personally.) > [@](#): > > It is a sad day. Free inquiry doesn’t happen by itself. It has to be nurtured. Official action can stunt or kill it all too easily, whether it’s by a government official or a mod on a message board. Oh, chill out, Patrick Henry. > [@](#): > > That is precisely the problem. Do you think **Airman Doors** was being a jerk in that other thread? Do you think the **Green Bean** was being a jerk in the thread we’re discussing now? Not having a zero tolerance for any word that could be considered hate speech regardless of context **does not** equal being a jerk. What other thread? Appearances to the contrary, I am not all-knowing and all-seeing. As for the linked thread, no, I don’t think **Green Bean** was being a jerk or violating any board rules. **And neither does anyone else.** If **DrMatrix** had a problem with those lyrics, _he would have said so when he closed the thread._ He didn’t. He didn’t warn **Green Bean** or anyone else in the thread, including the OP. He closed the thread for being a) in the wrong forum and b) probably not such a good idea in the first place. And that’s it. There was no blame attached to any posters or any specific posts in the thread. > [@](#): > > I want to make it clear that I don’t have any problem with **Dr. Matrix**. He wasn’t unnecessarily heavy-handed and was simply doing his best to apply a policy which, for all I know, he doesn’t agree with either. It’s the _policy_ I have a problem with. If this new policy is being misinterpreted or overzealously enforced, hopefully someone will come along to say so. If it’s not, I hope the mods and admins will re-think some of the implications. Do you have a link to this new policy? I don’t see that **DrMatrix** ’s actions are at all out of line with previous administrative actions on similar subjects. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/30 "2004-04-03T08:43:08Z")
**Miller** seems to have his ducks in a row, I just wish I could get course credit for reading his posts. I slept through recitation though. ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/31 "2004-04-03T11:14:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the pit is mostly (not naming names, cuz I don’t know all the prominent players) full of…let’s see. Self-serving entities who know all, those that will take objection with anything that presents itself, indignant pariahs that don’t know they are in fact pariahs, loudmouth assholes, “helen lovejoy’s”, religious fanatics, racists (sometimes), overly-sensitive people, those that like to get in fights, complainers, angry motorists/diners, etc. So what the hell have I been doing in MPSIMS all this time? Anyway, I think that thread should have been closed as well. It could have evolved into a racist thread - we all know racists are bad people and as someone pointed out, racism is ignorance. And ignorance is best fought with silence. If we just never talk about racism again, this ugly problem will go away forever. Good job, mods. Good Job. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/32 "2004-04-05T02:48:31Z")
Huh? I don’t understand this at all: > [@](#): > > \*A modern day warrior > Mean, mean stride > Today’s Tom Sawyer > Mean, mean pride > > Though his mind is not for rent > Don’t put him down as arrogant > His reserve a quiet defense > Riding out the day’s events > The river > > What you say about his company > Is what you say about society > Catch the myth, catch the mist > Catch the mystery, catch the drift > > (rest of lyrics [here](http://www.lyricsdepot.com/rush/tom-sawyer.html))\* Where’s the racism? ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/33 "2004-04-05T04:57:10Z")
**Coldfire** ’d never let us ban it. He may negotiate on _Roll The Bones_, though. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/34 "2004-04-05T18:30:06Z")
I had _really_ hoped that a mod would come along and clarify that there was no “zero tolerance” policy on hate speech and that I was overreacting. Since they didn’t, I’m forced to conclude that I’m not overreacting and that not only does the SDMB have a “zero tolerance” policy on hate speech, it actually has a “less than zero tolerance” policy since the mods will lock threads that might potentially tempt someone to use some of The Words. So, no discussions of racism in popular music are allowed. Not even a request for information on racism in popular music will be tolerated. No music lyrics containing any offensive words – or even, apparently, concepts, since _Brown Sugar_ doesn’t actually contain any of The Words – can be quoted. I suppose this goes for literature, too. Using the same reasoning that bans all uses of the word “n_gg_r,” regardless of context, threads discussing “Q\*\*\*r eye for the straight guy” are now forbidden in Cafe Society. It’s not clear what the status of “hate speech” that potentially denigrates women might be. Words like b\*tch, however, are considered to be hate speech by many people. Certain substantive discussions of sensitive topics may also be better left alone. I recall, for example, a quite spirited discussion of rape statistics several months ago. Much of what was said in that discussion was clearly considered to be “hate speech” by many of the participants. We can debate censorship but we cannot actually use the words being censored. I assume that a discussion of potentially offensive concepts, such as The Bell Curve, would still be allowed in GD, but the truly sad thing is that I’m no longer entirely sure. Many people do consider things like The Bell Curve to be “hate speech.” You may think I’m making a big deal about this and that “it’s just a message board.” Perhaps you’re right. Maybe it _is_ just a message board – but it didn’t used to be. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/35 "2004-04-05T21:07:17Z")
Yeah, and if the mods don’t come by and clarify their rules on cannabalism, I’m going to have to conclude that they all like to indulge in a taste of the long pig. Jesus fucking Christ. Some people. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/36 "2004-04-06T11:12:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I had really hoped that a mod would come along and clarify that there was no “zero tolerance” policy on hate speech and that I was overreacting. There is no zero tolerance policy. See [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4715953&postcount=90](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4715953&postcount=90) ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/37 "2004-04-06T11:32:59Z")
[QUOTE=Truth Seeker] So, no discussions of racism in popular music are allowed. Not even a request for information on racism in popular music will be tolerated. [QUOTE] Would you like to start a proper debate on Racism in Popular Music, complete with cites and discussion? If so, lets go to Great Debates and start it there. I actually think it would be a great debate. Just like Dr. M suggested. It’s not a zero tolerance policy. I think he just closed the thread because the subject matter was in the wrong forum, and invited the OP to reopen in GD. you’re trying to look for authoritarianism where there isn’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/38 "2004-04-06T16:48:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, and if the mods don’t come by and clarify their rules on cannabalism, I’m going to have to conclude that they all like to indulge in a taste of the long pig. > > Jesus fucking Christ. Some people. Now you’re just being a stupid git. If there was actual evidence that the mods engaged in cannabalism then you’d be right to be concerned and it would be perfectly reasonable to expect clarification. Many reasonable people are concerned about this policy. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247405&page=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247405&page=1) In fact, I considered making this thread simply a post in that thread but didn’t since that thread was getting quite long. Once again, the fact that the mods have chosen not to engage in this discussion suggests to me that they feel there is nothing to discuss and nothing to clarify. > [@Libertarian](#): > > There is no zero tolerance policy. See [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...53&postcount=90](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...53&postcount=90) Wow. Just wow. This looks completely identical to **Airman Doors** ’ comment. BTW, when people link to the single post, I can never figure out how to get to the actual thread. Could you post a link? Banning sarcastic hyperbole on the SDMB makes the baby Cecil cry. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/39 "2004-04-06T16:59:04Z")
Sorry, quoting racist lyrics in that context is not remotely close to hate speech. He could have moved the thread but closed it out of malice. Bad call. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784/40 "2004-04-06T17:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW, when people link to the single post, I can never figure out how to get to the actual thread. Could you post a link? The threads are linked above the posts, to the right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-to-ban-tom-sawyer/237784.md?page=3)