# SDMB weekly Bible Study (SDMBWBS)-Week 12 Genesis 18-19
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [November 4, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055 "2013-11-04T11:46:38Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/1 "2013-11-04T11:46:38Z")
Welcome to the SDMB weekly Bible Study (SDMBWBS). This week we will be discussing Genesis 18-19. Since the discussion can turn into a very broad and hijackable thread, we would like the following rules to be adhered to:
1. These SDMBWBS threads are to deal with the books and stories in the Bible as literature. What I’m hoping to achieve is an understanding of the stories, the time in which they were written, context, and possibly its cultural relevance.
2. While it is up to the individual to choose to believe or disbelieve any portion, that is not to be the discussion of the thread. If you must, please choose to witness/anti-witness in Great Debates.
3. The intention is to go through the Bible from front to back in order. While different books are needed to be referred to in order to understand context, please try and keep the focus on the thread’s selected chapter(s)/verse(s).
4. Since different religions have chosen which books to include or omit, the threads will use the Catholic version of 46 Old Testament Books and 27 New Testament Books. It’s encouraged to discuss why a book was included/omitted during the applicable threads only. BibleHub, as far as I know, is a good resource that compiles many different versions of the verses into one page.(Also the SDMB Staff Reports on Who Wrote the Bible). Please feel free to use whatever source you want, including-and even more helpfully-the original language.
5. Hopefully we can get through these threads with little to no moderation. A gentle reminder that if a poster comes in and ignores these rules, please use the “report post” function instead of responding.
Links to previous threads:
[Genesis 1:1 to 2:25](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698127)
[Genesis 3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698753)
[Genesis 4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=699429)
[Genesis 5-6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700060)
[Genesis 7-9:17](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700811)
[Genesis 9:18-10:32](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=702108)
[Genesis 11](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=703517)
[Genesis 12-13](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=704158)
[Genesis 14-15](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=704843)
[Genesis 16](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=705525)
[Genesis 17](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=706373)
---
### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/2 "2013-11-04T11:58:54Z")
[Genesis 18](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018&version=NIV)
Translation from THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®, NIV® Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
The Three Visitors
> [@](#):
>
> 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
>
> 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
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> “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
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> 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
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> 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
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> 9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.
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> “There, in the tent,” he said.
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> 10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”
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> Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”
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> 13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
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> 15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.”
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> But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”
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> Abraham Pleads for Sodom
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> 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
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> 20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
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> 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
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> 26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
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> 27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
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> “If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
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> 29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
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> He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
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> 30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
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> He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
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> 31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
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> He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
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> 32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
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> He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
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> 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
[Genesis 19](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2019&version=NIV)
Translation from New International Version (NIV)
THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®, NIV® Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
> [@](#):
>
> 19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
>
> “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
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> 3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
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> 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
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> 9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
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> 10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
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> 12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
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> 14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
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> 15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
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> 16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”
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> 18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords, please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”
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> 21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.)
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> 23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
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> 27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
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> 29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
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> Lot and His Daughters
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> 30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
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> 33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
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> 34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
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> 36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.
---
### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/3 "2013-11-04T12:41:34Z")
There are three major stories here, all attributed to the J-author for those who believe in multiple authors: welcoming strangers, bargaining with God over the fate of Sodom, and the desctruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. There’s a lot (no pun intended) here. Chapter 18 is about the character of Abraham.
THE THREE VISITORS: HOSPITALITY
Hospitality is a major issue in the Pentateuch. “Be kind to strangers because you were mistreated in Egypt” is a recurring theme. Here, in verse 1, “the Lord appeared to him” is usually followed immediately by what the Lord said. Prior visits by God are accompanied by an act of worship, building an altar, etc. Here, hospitality becomes an act of worship.
“In the heat of the day” means noon-ish. The text pre-dates the division of time into units like hours, so particular time is designated by experiences (cooling breeze, heat, sunrise, sunset, etc.) This is a time of day when people would not normally be out, so Abraham “looked up and saw” implies a suddenness or surprise.
The three men do not appear to be supernatural, at least not in appearance. Both Abraham and later the folk in Sodom see them as humans. Angels often appear in human form.
In verse 2, as soon as he sees them, Abraham “hurried” to greet them. Comment on Abraham’s personality is that he takes the initiative in welcoming strangers.
Abraham downplays his hospitality, although some of this is lost in **stpauler** ’s translation. In 18:5, the translation above says “let me get you something to eat” but a better (literal) translation is “a morsel of bread.” but in the next sentence, he is very generous with “finest flour,” cakes, etc. He bathes their feet (a major comfort in those days to people travelling through difficult terrain in sandals), he invites them to rest under a tree in the shade. “Finest flour” is later used for meal offerings. Calf was a delicacy, and this one is choice and tender… Milk was highly esteemed. The point is that Abraham is extremely open-hearted and generous, even to strangers.
In verse 10, the message is given to both Abraham and Sarah. This is in contrast to Eden, where the message was only given to Adam (and to Noah, but Mrs Noah isn’t even named.)
The naming of Isaac: (Assuming multiple authors, for a moment) - In 18:12, Sarah laughs at the news that she will have a child when she is already so old. The same thing happens in Gen 17:17 (attributed to P-author) and in 21:6 (attributed to E-author.) This is used as an indication, by those believing in multiple authors, that there was once an oral tradition (Abraham and Sarah laugh, hence the name Isaac meaning “laughter”) that was reflected in different authors, and eventually blended into a single text.
There is considerable difficulties/confusion in the Hebrew text, usually masked by English. The verbs relating to the three strangers are sometimes singular, sometimes plural. The traditional explanation is that Abraham speaks only to the leader (in v 3) but the invitation in verses 4-5 apply to all three.
There is also some confusion about God speaking or angels speaking. This happens often, we saw it in 16:7-11 when an angel speaks to Hagar but she responds to God directly. We’ll see it again in Genesis 22 at the almost-sacrifice of Isaac, and at the burning bush in Exodus 3, and elsewhere.
ABRAHAM PLEAS FOR SODOM: ABRAHAM’S KINDNESS
The story is extraordinary. First, God engages in consultation with Abraham. It’s partly a test, of course: if Abraham is to be a blessing for others and he and his children are “to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just”, then this is a test to see whether Abraham really will pursue justice. “Doing what is right and just” is pretty much the Mission Statement of the text, given to Abraham.
Second, Abraham’s prior conversations with God have been about him (Abraham) and his well-being and future. This conversation is about others, total strangers. “Abraham displays an awareness of suffering and an ability to respond beyond his immediate personal interests. He shows himself to be a moral man, a compassionate person.” [Sarna]
Next extraordinary thing is that Abraham holds God accountable (v 25.)
Then, note the important reversal from earlier. In the flood story, the whole world is wicked and destroyed, only the righteous survive. For Abraham to say, “don’t destroy the innocent along with the guilty” would be obvious. But Abraham argues stronger, let the wicked survive for the sake of the innocent. Justice is defined as: it’s worse if the innocent suffer than if the guilty go unpunished.
Reading this story, one might think God is pretty gullible. But of course, this is only God testing Abraham.
The reduction to ten righteous individuals being enough to outweigh the wickedness of the community leads to Jewish tradition desiring/requiring ten persons to gather for certain types of prayers. The number ten symbolizes totality in the text.
(I’ll do the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah later)
---
### Author:  [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/4 "2013-11-04T13:02:10Z")
The past April the SDMB had [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=687060&highlight=sodom+gomorrah+genesis) concerining this story.
UDS posted:
> [@](#):
>
> A starting point is to look at the story in its context, and by “context” I mean the book of Genesis. We read Genesis as a single text, but of course it wasn’t composed as such. It was compiled, stitching together existing, already ancient stories, and sometimes stitching in more than one version of the same story. The story of destruction of Sodom is found in chapter 19, and it comes immediately after the story of Abraham in chapter 18, to which it forms a marked contrast.
>
> In chapter 18, Abraham is living in a tent in the desert, with his wife and (small) household. He’s a nomad, travelling around looking for grazing for his sheep and goats, and otherwise living on what he can scrounge from the countryside. It’s a pretty basic existence, he’s getting on in years and at the start of each winter he really doesn’t know whether he will make it through to the next.
>
> Three angels, disguised as men, come to his tent. Although they are strangers, in a culture which was suspicious of strangers, he greets them as honoured guests, and shares what little food he has with them. He even shares his water with them – an even scarcer resource. The men promise Abraham that his wife will bear a child (which indeed she does – Isaac).
>
> Right. At the beginning of chapter 19, the same angels (though now there are only two of them – a sign, perhaps, that the editor is drawing together two previously separate stories) arrive at the gates of Sodom. The countryside around, it has already been established, is fertile, and Sodom is a prosperous and powerful city. We’ve also already been told that it has the name of being a place of great wickedness. (This has been mentioned as far back as chapter 14.) Lot meets the angels, and offers them his hospitality, much as Abraham did. In fact, he’s quite insistent, and he also insists that after saying with him they should “be on their way”. Lot, one senses, has a pretty shrewd idea of what happened to strangers in Sodom.
>
> The men of the city surround Lot’s house and demand that he bring out the strangers “that we may know them”.
>
> “Know” here looks like a bowdlerised euphemism for “have sex with”, and we tend to assume that it is employed by a squeamish translator. That’s unfair to the translator; the Hebrew word which appears here does in fact mean “know”. But, yes, it is a euphemism for having sex; it’s employed many times in the Old Testament in that sense.
>
> But it also means “to know” and, remember, these men are strangers, and the culture of the time was suspicious of strangers. The citizens of Sodom didn’t know these men in either sense. I think the text raises both the literal and the euphemistic sense of the word, and the message is that “we’re going to do violence to these men; we’re going to humiliate them in the worst way we can, which is violent gang rape, and we are doing that because they are strangers, and we hate and fear strangers”.
>
> Why would Sodom hate and fear strangers more than Abraham in the desert? Because Sodom has more to lose. Sodom is wealthy and powerful; Sodom is a target of envy. Sodom is rich, but is surrounded by poverty. Sodom is constantly at war. (We learned this in Genesis 14.) It’s only a few years since the place was sacked by the Elamites. The Elamites were driven off on that occasion, but they’re still around. Sodom is scared.
>
> Sodom hates the fact that wealth and power doesn’t, in the end, buy security from the starving nomads of the valleys, because Sodom thinks it bloody well should.
>
> In short, the reason the men of Sodom want to “know” these strange men is not so much because they’re men as because they’re strangers. This is the whole point of the contrast between Abraham’s reception of the strangers, and Sodom’s reception.
>
> And this is a very long-standing reading. The prophet Ezekiel, for whom this was already an ancient story, writes that “this was the guilt of Sodom; she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and the needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things.”
>
> “But what about the gay?”, I hear you all cry. “What about the hot man-on-man sex? What about the handbags? And the glitter? And all that pink?”
>
> Sadly, this story is not really about that. We’re obsessed with sex, and it’s kind of hard for us to comprehend that a moral story which involves sex is not primarily about sex. But, really, it isn’t.
>
> But hold on. Doesn’t Trinopus, back in post #4, say that the “classic interpretation” is that the sin of Sodom was, well, sodomy?
>
> That’s true, if “classical” actuall means “medieval and modern European”. This perspective arose in medieval Europe (as indeed did the word “sodomy” - a couple of thousand years after the story of Sodom was first written down). The classic Jewish commentaries all treat this story as being about hospitality to “the stranger” (which, don’t forget, is a central preoccupation of the Old Testament moral codes). Quite why our culture came to take a different view is a subject for another discussion, but obviously it’s tied in with our preoccupation with sex.
>
> I’m not saying that the ancient Hebrews were fine with homosexuality; they were not. They took a Very Dim View Indeed. They put it on a par with sacrificing your children to Moloch, or eating black pudding. But they didn’t share our obsession with sex; they didn’t regard sexual sin as uniquely awful, and they didn’t think “sex!” whenever they heard the word “immorality”, as we do. Consequently when the homosexual aspect turns up in this story, it doesn’t necessarily become, for the culture for which it was written, a story about homosexuality. The main focus of this story is found by reading it in context, and in its context it’s very clearly about hospitality, about the treatment of strangers, about the responsibilities of wealth and power and about the idolatry of wealth and power.
>
> It’s not just our focus on sex as the pre-eminent moral question which hinders us in reading this story. There’s an even bigger issue and that, of course, is Lot’s treatment of his daughters; he offers his two daughters to the ravening hordes, if only they will leave the strangers alone. How can we not be revolted by this? And how can this not become, for us, a story about the oppression and abuse of women?
>
> Just as we read this story through the lens of our emphasis on sex, so the original audience would have read it through a few lenses of their own, one of them being the attitude to women. Women, basically, were viewed as the property of men, and this was especially true of daughters.
>
> We, of course, are horrified by this. But if we really want to understand this story - what it means, how it was intended, how it was received by its audience – then we have to note that horror, but be prepared to put it to one side and to think about what the story means given that appalling attitude to women.
>
> One of the things that our horror prevents us from seeing is that a proprietorial attitude to one’s family can sit alongside with a strong and natural love. Yes, the OT texts show us that the Hebrew men owned their daughters, but it also shows us that they loved them, passionately. Daughters were not just another species of property; they were incredibly precious. Time and again Old Testament texts present the loss of children as the worst possible misfortune that could befall someone; as a crushing blow from which no recovery could be expected.
>
> So Lot offering his daughters to the mob isn’t offering them money, or goods, or slaves; he’s offering them the most precious thing he has. The point of the story is not that you should be willing to sacrifice your children in order to prevent gay sex happening, or even that you should be willing to sacrifice your children in order to observe the obligations of hospitality. The point is to underline the depravity of the mob; Lot offered them the most precious thing he could in order to induce them to act as they should have acted with no inducement at all, and they preferred to stick with to their disastrous, fear-filled, hate-filled rage. Why? Because they put their trust in their wealth and power. They looked to it to save them. They would sacrifice everything, including their own decency, to defend their wealth even from purely imaginary threats, and nothing would turn them from this catastrophic course.
>
> And that, basically, is the point of the Sodom story. We might like it to be making a point about homosexuality but it isn’t, really. We might like it not to assume horrific attitudes towards women, but it does. But it’s not about either of those things.
followed by cmkeller’s posting:
> [@](#):
>
> I come not to dispute UDS’s take on the story, but to complement it.
>
> The Torah is (for non-believers: meant to be taken as) the communication of G-d to the Israelites in the desert, in preparation for their entry to Canaan and their impending conquest of the land. The commandments that they are expected to live their lives by start in Exodus. Genesis seems unnecessary to this purpose. The Rabbis comment that the purpose of Genesis is to establish the basis of the right of the Israelites to the land, which is a) G-d’s complete ownership of the Earth, as he is the creator of it, which gives him the right to allocate land to peoples as he sees fit, and b) G-d’s promise to Abraham to give him that particular piece of land.
>
> Also included in such instruction is what lands NOT to conquer, as G-d has allocated these for other nations of Abrahamic heritage:
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 2:5
> Do not provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land, not even enough to put your foot on. I have given Esau the hill country of Seir as his own.
>
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 2:9
> Then the Lord said to me, “Do not harass the Moabites or provoke them to war, for I will not give you any part of their land. I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession.”
>
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 2:19
> When you come to the Ammonites, do not harass them or provoke them to war, for I will not give you possession of any land belonging to the Ammonites. I have given it as a possession to the descendants of Lot.”
>
> The background on Lot, and the story of how these nations descended from him, is essential background information for explaining the rules within which the new nation is expected to conduct itself toward certain specific other nations.
>
> There is a subtle difference between the Moabites and the Ammonites in the original Hebrew that is not reflected in the NIV English translation I used above. The NIV translates both a phrase in verse 9 and one in verse 19 as “provoke them to war”, but in fact the word “war” is not present in the original Hebrew in verse 9. The traditional Jewish commentators say that this indicates that while the Israelites were not allowed to harass the Ammonites in any way, but they were allowed to harass the Moabites as long as they did not actually start a war. The reason for this difference is because Lot’s second daughter was modest enough to use euphemism in naming her child, while the first daughter was more brazen about the origins of the child, demonstrating to the Israelites that sexual modesty was a virtue that G-d valued.
I’ll be back with more later.
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/5 "2013-11-04T15:01:11Z")
I want to add a point to the Abraham bargaining with God sequence, that I forgot to add. This is in marked contrast to Noah. God tells Noah that He is going to destroy the entire world except for Noah and his family, and Noah’s reaction is essentially to shrug his shoulders and start building the ark. Abraham’s reaction is the opposite, and the correct one, showing sympathy for those who face terrible judgement, and trying to avert destruction of others.
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### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/6 "2013-11-04T15:29:46Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#):
>
> I want to add a point to the Abraham bargaining with God sequence, that I forgot to add. This is in marked contrast to Noah. God tells Noah that He is going to destroy the entire world except for Noah and his family, and Noah’s reaction is essentially to shrug his shoulders and start building the ark. Abraham’s reaction is the opposite, and the correct one, showing sympathy for those who face terrible judgement, and trying to avert destruction of others.
Yes, but it makes me wonder if 10 is the cutoff or just the arbitrary narrative number. Meaning, if Abraham had kept “pushing”, he could have gotten God down to 1 innocent person. Meaning, God would not have destroyed Sodom (and the other 4 cities?) if he had kept bringing the number down thus saving Lot.
Also, it’s not mentioned, but I’m assuming the two angels got out of there before the sulfur came raining down?
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### Author:  [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/7 "2013-11-04T23:24:21Z")
> [@stpauler](#):
>
> Yes, but it makes me wonder if 10 is the cutoff or just the arbitrary narrative number. Meaning, if Abraham had kept “pushing”, he could have gotten God down to 1 innocent person.
I don’t think so.
Signed,
Isaac
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/8 "2013-11-04T23:48:23Z")
> [@stpauler](#):
>
> Yes, but it makes me wonder if 10 is the cutoff or just the arbitrary narrative number. Meaning, if Abraham had kept “pushing”, he could have gotten God down to 1 innocent person. Meaning, God would not have destroyed Sodom (and the other 4 cities?) if he had kept bringing the number down thus saving Lot.
I think that the text here is about community. The entire city behaves badly and is punished for it; a single individual would not form a righteous “community.” Thus, the text is implicitly suggesting that ten people form a community.
The fate of the angels is not mentioned, but one assumes they weren’t harmed.
Now, a few other points about Chapter 19:
First, note the thematic parallels between the opening of Chapters 18 and 19, as follows:
- Ch 18: Abraham shows hospitality to three strangers;
- Ch 19: Lot shows hospitality to two strangers
- Ch 18: After the hospitality, there is a discussion on the blessings of fertility
- Ch 19: After the hospitality (and destruction), there is a grotesque fertility with Lot’s daughters
So the chapters establish a link between hospitality and fertility. I would summarize that link as: (1) we are all guests in God’s world; and (2) the same act (sex) can be pure or impure/distorted. Procreation and family are not just biological functions; the family that is hospitable is both biological AND spiritual.
The fault of the sons-in-law (19:14) is not disbelief, but lack of seriousness and insensitivity to the moral evil around them.
Tradition varies on the offense of Sodom. The J author here implies sexual depravity, but Isaiah (1:9ff) says it was lack of justice, Jeremiah (23:14) says moral laxity, and Ezekiel (16:49) says disregard of the needy. I like the interpretation given by **UDS** in the thread quoted above.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is expressed primarily in moral terms. The description of the catastrophe itself is minimal. The translation is often “fire and brimstone”, see: [What’s up with "fire and brimstone"? What’s brimstone? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1642/whats-up-with-fire-and-brimstone-whats-brimstone)
The pillar of salt is common misconception. Deuteronomy 29:22 describes Sodom destroyed by sulphur and salt, so Lot’s wife would have suffered the same fate as many other inhabitants: disappearing in a blanket of salt. The popular notion of her turning into a salt statue was possibly suggested by some of the salt formations near the Dead Sea. (Tour guides in the area today can show you the original Mrs Lot’s salt formation, they each have their favorite.) The salt may be symbolic, as well, since ancient conquerers were said to spread salt on the fields as a punishment. (See: [Did ancient conquerors punish their enemies by sowing captured fields with salt? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2698/did-ancient-conquerors-punish-their-enemies-by-sowing-captured-fields-with-salt) )
The sexual incident with Lot’s daughters is somewhat parallel to Noah’s. Lot daughters believe that the entire world has been destroyed, and so they commit incest to repopulate the world. They are not dealt with harshly by the text. And later, in the book of Ruth, the marriage of Boaz (from Judah) and Ruth (from Moab) leads to King David, so re-unites the family.
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### Author:  [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/9 "2013-11-05T00:35:50Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#):
>
> The pillar of salt is common misconception. Deuteronomy 29:22 describes Sodom destroyed by sulphur and salt, so Lot’s wife would have suffered the same fate as many other inhabitants: disappearing in a blanket of salt.
The text plainly says she became a pillar (Strong’s 5333) of salt. There’s no indication that the rest of the family got even a speck of salt on them, and there’s no reason why their small party should have been widely separated. Turning Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt is a very minor part of the miracle of Yahweh’s destruction of two cities, so there is no need to seek a non-miraculous explanation.
> [@](#):
>
> The sexual incident with Lot’s daughters is somewhat parallel to Noah’s. Lot daughters believe that the entire world has been destroyed, and so they commit incest to repopulate the world.
Again, the text plainly says that they first fled to Zoar, which was not destroyed. They moved to a cave because Lot feared the residents there, so unless his daughters were imbeciles, they knew there were other people around. A much more reasonable speculation is that the residents of Zoar feared that Lot’s family was cursed by their association with Sodom, and drove them out. His daughters then assumed that no man would have them, not that Lot was the only man on earth.
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### Author:  [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/10 "2013-11-05T12:17:05Z")
Although the dietary laws haven’t been given at this point, it seems strange that the rule about not boiling a calf in its mother’s milk came to be interpreted as a complete separation of milk and meat dishes given the meal that Abraham has prepared in this story.
Tall el-Hammam is one of the sites proposed for Sodom. It was a major city that was destroyed in a fire in excess of 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Living in a land with such ruins would lend itself to stories about why the city was destroyed, especially if it was a natural phenomenon. There may have been a tradition of stories about the destruction of Sodom long before it got attached to the story of Abraham and Lot.
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### Author:  [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/11 "2013-11-05T12:45:39Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#):
>
> Although the dietary laws haven’t been given at this point, it seems strange that the rule about not boiling a calf in its mother’s milk came to be interpreted as a complete separation of milk and meat dishes given the meal that Abraham has prepared in this story.
The rule about separation of milk and meat comes from the fact that the commandment “not to boil a kid in its mother’s milk” is repeated three times in the Pentateuch. The rabbis in Talmudic times and before reasoned that God would not be redundant, so appearing three times implies three different aspects. My recollection ( **cmkeller** , please correct if I’ve misremembered) is that the first time indicates not to eat meat and milk together; the second times is to keep separate dishes for meat and milk; and the third time is not to profit from any combination of meat and milk.
The commandment being specific (kid in its mother’s milk) did not stop the rabbis from the expansion to all meat and all milk. (There were some rabbis who held that chicken and milk was permissible, since a chicken does not have “mother’s milk”, but they didn’t prevail.)
There is much debate about why Abraham would serve the calf with milk. There are several answers, the two that I remember off the top of me head:
(1) The laws of milk/meat weren’t given until Sinai, much later. (Many rabbis are still uncomfortable with the patriarchs violating laws, regardless of the chronology.)
(2) The milk was served first, then the meat (permissible.) Verse 8 says he served “curds and milk and the calf” so the order implies that all was kosher.
> [@Tony Sinclair](#):
>
> The text plainly says she became a pillar (Strong’s 5333) of salt. There’s no indication that the rest of the family got even a speck of salt on them, and there’s no reason why their small party should have been widely separated.
Sorry, I did not mean to imply a “natural” phenomenon. The later reference to “sulphur and salt” implies that the fate of Lot’s wife was a literary parallel to what happened to the other inhabitants. In much the same way that I meant the incident with Lot’s daughters to be a literary parallel to Noah: sexual misbehavior following mass destruction. In much the same way that Lot’s hospitality is set up as a parallel to Abraham’s. I’m talking of this as literature, not historical fact. That allows for multiple interpretations and multiple readings. Sorry if I was unclear.
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### Author:  [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/12 "2013-11-05T13:24:50Z")
A few more notes:
Lot’s wife’s name is Edith, at least according to one Midrash.
In another incident, Eliezer, Abraham’s servant, went to visit Lot in Sodom and got in a dispute with a Sodomite over a beggar, and was hit in the forehead with a stone, making him bleed. The Sodomite demanded Eliezer pay him for the service of bloodletting, and a Sodomite judge sided with the Sodomite. Eliezer then struck the judge in the forehead with a stone and asked the judge to pay the Sodomite.
The Talmud and the Sefer haYashar (midrash) also recount two incidents of a young girl (one involved Lot’s daughter Paltith) who gave some bread to a poor man who had entered the city. When the townspeople discovered their acts of kindness, they burned Paltith and smeared the other girl’s body with honey and hung her from the city wall until she was eaten by bees. (Sanhedrin 109a.) It is this gruesome event, and her scream in particular, the Talmud concludes, that are alluded to in the verse that heralds the city’s destruction: “So said, ‘Because the outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah has become great, and because their sin has been very grave, I will descend and see…’”
Archibald Sayce translated an Akkadian poem describing cities that were destroyed in a rain of fire, written from the view of a person who escaped the destruction; the names of the cities are not given.
_Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. —Ezekiel 16:49-50_
The Quran contains seven references to “the people of Lut”, the biblical Lot, but meaning the
residents of Sodom and Gomorrah (references 7:80–84, 11:77–83, 21:74, 22:43, 26:165–175, 27:56–59, and 29:27–33), and their destruction by Allah is associated explicitly with their sexual practices:
The ‘people of Lot’ transgressed consciously against the bounds of God. Their avarice led to inhospitality and robbery, which in turn led to the humiliation of strangers by mistreatment and rape. It was their abominable sin of homosexual sex which was seen as symptomatic of their attitudes, and upon Lot’s exhorting them to abandon their transgression against God, they ridiculed him, and threatened him with dire consequences; Lot only prayed to God to be saved from doing as they did. Then Gabriel met Lot and said that he must run from the town quickly, as Allah gave this command for Gabriel to give to Lot for saving his life. In the Quran it was written that Lot’s wife was killed when she turned her head back to look at the disaster, and that only Lot and his family were saved during the destruction of their town, with the understanding that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are identified in Genesis, but “the location remains unnamed in the Qur’an”.
In the Quran, surah (chapter) 26 Ash-Shu`arā’ (The Poets) –
So, We saved him and his family, all. Except an old woman among those who remained behind.
—Quran 26:170–171
Commentary: This was his wife, who was a bad old woman. She stayed behind and was destroyed with whoever else was left. This is similar to what Allah says about them in Surat Al-A`raf and Surah Hud, and in Surat Al-Hijr, where Allah commanded him to take his family at night, except for his wife, and not to turn around when they heard the Sayhah as it came upon his people. So they patiently obeyed the command of Allah and persevered, and Allah sent upon the people a punishment which struck them all, and rained upon them stones of baked clay, piled up.
—Tafsir ibn Kathir (Commentary by Ibn Kathir)
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/13 "2013-11-05T22:49:16Z")
stpauler:
> [@](#):
>
> Yes, but it makes me wonder if 10 is the cutoff or just the arbitrary narrative number. Meaning, if Abraham had kept “pushing”, he could have gotten God down to 1 innocent person.
According to the Midrash, as quoted by Rashi, 10 was not arbitrary. Abraham calculated that the presence of 8 righteous people was not enough for G-d to not destroy the world over in Noah’s time (Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives). (Rashi makes a brief comment about why not 9, but I don’t quite get it, so I’m still looking for a commentary that elaborates on that point.)
CK Dexter Haven:
> [@](#):
>
> is that the first time indicates not to eat meat and milk together; the second times is to keep separate dishes for meat and milk; and the third time is not to profit from any combination of meat and milk.
Close. The first time indicates (as the plain meaning of the verse) not to COOK meat in milk, the second indicates not to eat meat cooked in milk (by a non-Jew), the third is not to profit from the product in any way.
The separate dishes are not a distinct requirement, but are an extension of the “cooking” prohibition. It is a principle of Jewish law that utensils absorb some degree of flavor when they are used with hot food, and that they will disgorge some of the absorbed flavor when touched by something similarly hot. If a hot piece of meat is placed on a plate (and thus the plate absorbs some meat flavor), and then some time afterward, a hot dairy product is placed on the same plate (thus prompting the plate to disgorge some meat flavor into the dairy), the hot dairy product will, in effect, be cooking the meat (flavor is considered significant in Jewish law regarding food mixtures).
In theory, if someone committed himself to always eating only cold food, there’s no Halachic reason he can’t use the same dishes for meat and dairy.
> [@](#):
>
> (There were some rabbis who held that chicken and milk was permissible, since a chicken does not have “mother’s milk”, but they didn’t prevail.)
Not quite. All Rabbis agree that chicken in milk is not in the scope of the original Torah prohibition. However, the Rabbis decreed that Jews should not eat a chicken-in-dairy mixture because chicken can be easily confused with (mammal) meat.
> [@](#):
>
> There is much debate about why Abraham would serve the calf with milk. There are several answers, the two that I remember off the top of me head:
Another explanation I’ve read is that he wanted to offer the guests their choice (bearing in mind that there were more than one) of milk or meat, and didn’t want any of them to be uncomfortable asking for what the other didn’t want. However, he stood over them the entire time they ate (“while they ate, he stood nearby under a tree”) specifically so he could warn them if one of them had attempted to eat milk and meat together.
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### Author:  [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-12-genesis-18-19/673055/14 "2013-11-11T13:22:51Z")
New thread [Genesis 20-22](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16837873#post16837873)