# SDMB weekly Bible Study (SDMBWBS)-Week 5 Genesis 7-9:17 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488 "2013-08-29T11:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/21 "2013-08-31T02:28:46Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > This was my bar mitzvah Torah portion. I just wanted to add that “gopher” has nothing to do with the furry creature. Rather it is a transliteration of the original Hebrew גֹפֶר > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Right. It’s often translated as “cypress wood” but that’s really just a guess. The same source where I heard about the firmament also had an interesting take on “gopher wood”. The suggestion was that “gopher wood” was not the wood of a particular tree, but rather a particular woodworking/carpentry technique, or perhaps a method of treating the wood that would make it the most suitable for the purpose; the exact technique/treatment has simply been lost to time (not that we don’t still know how to do it, but rather that we simply don’t know what process is meant by “gopher wood”). For example, today we have creosote-treated wood that we use for telephone poles and railroad ties, and we have plywood. Maybe 4000 years from how, people may not know what today’s literature means when it mentions plywood. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/22 "2013-08-31T13:25:32Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Then there’s the “[firmament](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament)”. I’ve heard some stuff (and apparently Josephus even explained it) that the “Firmament” was actually a physical, material sphere that encircled the earth. Basically, it had the effect of a terrarium, making the earth humid enough to support plant life. When the Flood came, part of the deal was that the Firmament came crashing down All that moisture that had previously been contained in the “terrarium” turned into clouds that then rained down on the earth. I’m afraid I can’t provide cites for this, as it’s stuff I heard long before the Internet. My (limited) understanding is that most ancients viewed the (flat) earth as resting on a great ocean (the waters below) with a huge dome above it. The dome has holes in it, and sometimes water leaks through (hence, rain) and sometimes light leaks through (hence, stars.) This is the dome that Atlas holds up in Greek myth. The Genesis perspective is not inconsistent with this, but neither fully committed to this view. I’ve also heard that the etymology of the Hebrew word for “heavens” שמים is from שמ (“there is”) and מים (“waters”), referring to the waters above the sky-dome. However, I’ve also heard this is NOT the etymology, but is just coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/23 "2013-08-31T17:05:02Z")
Bumping this to say that I have nothing worthwhile to add, but am reading with interest. Thanks to all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/24 "2013-08-31T18:57:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Bumping this to say that I have nothing worthwhile to add, but am reading with interest. Thanks to all. I was about to post the same thing. I have learned quite a bit from those who are much more knowledgeable about the subject than me. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/25 "2013-08-31T19:25:45Z")
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/26 "2013-09-04T17:02:27Z")
BTW, Shana Tova to Dexter Haven and cmkeller! ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/27 "2013-09-04T18:50:22Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > BTW, Shana Tova to Dexter Haven and cmkeller! Since this is a festive day/week (and usually when a new thread starts), let’s hold off the next part until next week. Speaking of which, should next week just cover 9:18-10:32 (all of 10)? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/28 "2013-09-04T18:52:39Z")
Yes, it makes sense to me to go through the end of chapter 10. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/29 "2013-09-04T19:12:20Z")
And Shana Tova wishes from me to you all as well! ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/30 "2013-09-04T19:13:09Z")
Remarkable that the Flood story, which has been recounted for thousands of years, is still making news. I just saw [this article](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/03/canadian_comet_impact_fingered_for_triggering_younger_dryas_climate_shift/) about a comet impact in Canada about 13000 years ago causing a massive climate change that may have killed off the giant mammals then extant in North America. Based on core samples containing iridium in the form of spherules that require temperatures of 2000 degrees C to form, they are now looking for an impact site even larger than the already known Corossal Crater (evidently named by a Japanese scientist). The scientists advancing this theory say they think that it may have contributed to the release of the water in Lake Agassiz, which was a huge prehistoric lake in southern Canada that may have held as much water as the rest of the world’s lakes combined. When the ice dam holding it back finally gave way about 8000 years ago, it released enough water into the Arctic and North Atlantic to raise the sea level by nearly five feet, which in turn caused the Mediterranean Sea to spill over into the Black Sea, which along with the flooding of the area, converted the Black Sea from fresh to salt water. [Some scientists](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071120-noah-flood_2.html) think that this disruption is what caused the relatively sudden and widespread growth of agriculture in Europe, which accords well with the story in Genesis, where after surviving the Flood, Noah promptly plants a vineyard. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/31 "2013-09-04T19:48:10Z")
Thanks, Tony. I’ll have to file that away for future reference. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/32 "2013-09-12T19:35:45Z")
[New thread is here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=702108) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/33 "2014-04-04T22:53:35Z")
This is going back a ways, but it’s topical since the new Noah movie came out. Can any of our experts on Jewish lore comment on this article, which talks about Gnostic interpretations of Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.? > **[Sympathy For The Devil — DR. BRIAN MATTSON](http://drbrianmattson.com/journal/2014/3/31/sympathy-for-the-devil)** > > In Darren Aronofsky’s new star-gilt silver screen epic, Noah , Adam and Eve are luminescent and fleshless, right up until the moment they eat the forbidden fruit. Such a notion isn’t found in the Bible, of course. This, among the multitude of... ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/34 "2014-04-04T23:30:42Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > This is going back a ways, but it’s topical since the new Noah movie came out. > > Can any of our experts on Jewish lore comment on this article, which talks about Gnostic interpretations of Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.? > > [Sympathy For The Devil — DR. BRIAN MATTSON](http://drbrianmattson.com/journal/2014/3/31/sympathy-for-the-devil) Terrible article. Very sloppy. The “ancient religion of Gnosticism”? Gnosticism was never a single, unified religion, whether ancient or modern. See Michael Williams’ _Rethinking “Gnosticism”: An Argument for Dismantling a Dubious Category_. Citing Adolphe Franck and - let’s see here - _no other scholar whatsoever_? C’mon. A thing or two has happened in this field since the 1840’s. And then there’s this: > [@](#): > > The world of Gnostic mysticism is bewildering with a myriad of varieties. But, generally speaking, they hold in common that the serpent is “Sophia,” “Mother,” or “Wisdom.” The serpent represents the true divine, and the claims of “The Creator” are false. Bullshit. Christian Gnostics believed in Christ. Some non-Christian Gnostics believed in Derdekeas; others in Seth. Then you had the Mandaeans, and… Well. The list goes on. Now, _some_ Gnostic groups - like the Ophites a.k.a. Ophians a.k.a. Sethians, the Naassenes, the Cainites, the Peratae, etc. - were certainly at least _accused_ of worshipping the serpent, but a) we don’t know if they ever really did, and b) in any case, certainly there is nothing that indicates that, “generally speaking,” this belief was held “in common” by all, or most, Gnostic groups. Different strokes for different folks. Then there is the author’s conflation of “Gnosticism” and Kabbalah, which he calls “essentially a form of Jewish Gnosticism.” That is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/35 "2014-04-04T23:42:37Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Terrible article. Very sloppy. > … > Then there is the author’s conflation of “Gnosticism” and Kabbalah, which he calls “essentially a form of Jewish Gnosticism.” That is absurd. I appreciate your frankness, but at least for this thread, I’m not terribly concerned about whether he’s right about the different aspects of Gnosticism. My question, which I should have been more clear about, is whether any of these themes had their origins in the Talmud or other rabbinic commentary on Genesis, as opposed to being invented much later by Christian and/or Gnostic mystics. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/36 "2014-04-05T12:48:34Z")
I haven’t seen the movie (and probably won’t until I can get it free) but I’d like to suggest that you start a new thread on this topic, you’ll attract more attention. This thread is really just bible text interpretation thread. I don’t _think_ such things were Talmudic, but I’m not an expert. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/37 "2014-04-07T06:20:59Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > My question, which I should have been more clear about, is whether any of these themes had their origins in the Talmud or other rabbinic commentary on Genesis, as opposed to being invented much later by Christian and/or Gnostic mystics. If you mean Gnostic themes generally, there’s a wide range of possible sources of inspiration - Judaism being one of the prime contenders. Roelof van den Broek writes the following: > [@](#): > > Rabbinic polemics show that there were _minim_, dissident Jews, who speculated about the existence of Two Powers in heaven, God and his agent or vice-regent, who was known under various names (Angel of the Lord, the Lesser Jahweh, the Name, Shekina, Man, Wisdom, etc.) and who shared in or was wholly responsible for the creation of the world (Segal, Fossum). > > The rabbis were vehemently opposed to this idea, because they considered it a serious threat to Jewish monotheism. It should be noticed, however, that in the Jewish (and Samaritan) sources there is no evidence whatsoever that this divine agent or intermediary was ever placed in opposition to God. > > Various suggestions have been made to explain how Jews could have come to a degradation of the God of their fathers to the status of a lower and bad Demiurge, but none of them have succeeded in convincing the majority of scholars. > > There is no evidence that suggests the existence of a distinctly mythological Gnosis in Judaism. Nevertheless, it seems certain that the earliest myths about the origin of evil and the world were developed by Jews who were well informed about apocryphal and mystical Jewish traditions, but had apparently lost the faith of their fathers in the God of Israel as the creator of the world. This might be explained out of a deeply felt disappointment with the apparent inability of this God to prevent the tragic events that happened to the Jewish people in the first century. > > However this may be, there is no reason to see the whole Gnostic movement as derived directly from Judaism. I haven’t read Segal or Fossum, so I don’t know if the proto-Gnostic heresies of these _minim_ pre-date or post-date the Talmud. Hopefully someone more knowledgable than me will chime in! In any case, though, Gnostic ideas certainly didn’t pop up “much later,” as you write - the great Gnostic systems date from ca. the 2nd century CE, so around the same time as the Mishnah, and three centuries _before_ the Gemara. … I hope this answer is at least somewhat closer to what you were looking for! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488/38 "2014-04-07T18:15:53Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > … I hope this answer is at least somewhat closer to what you were looking for! 😉 Yes, thank you very much. I’ll take Dex’s advice and leave it here for this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-weekly-bible-study-sdmbwbs-week-5-genesis-7-9-17/667488.md?page=1)