# Sealioning **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2019, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837 "2019-10-16T10:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/201 "2019-10-19T14:50:52Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > It might be one out of a thousand sea lions that act like that. No, in that world, \*all \*sealions are dicks. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/202 "2019-10-19T16:17:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Just so I’m clear, you’re now saying that sealioning, at least how it’s been defined here nicely by **Ravenman** and **Bone** , is a thing and **HD** for one engages in it? Nope. Just that HD is clearly engaging in obnoxious trolling with those thread titles (I didn’t read the actual OPs and I doubt they would change my mind). I see no parallel with the sea lion comic. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You seriously think he _isn’t_? > > But can we be clear that politely asking questions is not “all he’s doing”? Yes, but what exactly is very unclear. The crux is what the “home” represents. If it’s an unprotected tweet, the metaphor is fundamentally rotten and disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/203 "2019-10-19T16:53:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes, but what exactly is very unclear. The crux is what the “home” represents. If it’s an unprotected tweet, the metaphor is fundamentally rotten and disingenuous. Not really. Even on the internet, bubbles and semi-private spaces exist even when they’re technically open public spaces. Like, in your example/conspiracty theory about young nubile persons of color college girls trash talking all white men for the benefit of their friends and followers on the twitters, you (the middle aged antifeminist trog) have no real reason to be there, read their shit or stumble upon that content unless you’re friends with said college girl or you’re directed to go and look at what those people are saying by no doubt well intentioned twitter users. In other words, unless you set out looking for outrage and stupid people to be outraged by (though, again, I’ve yet to meet the prophecized shrieking manhating feminazi. And I’m actually a middle aged white guy who’s back in college, where they supposedly nest). That’s on **you**. Similarly, if you’re set to harass someone because of what they said on one forum, look up which other forums they frequent and start some shit there, then the home analogy works perfectly fine as well. At that point you’re invading a community for the sole purpose of being a dick and turning it into a hostile space, not just for the person you’re harassing, but everyone else there as well. Whereas what \*normal \*people do on the interwebs when they read tweets they deem to be assholish by people who are assholes is… move away, with or without leaving one “well fuck YOU” comment. But don’t follow that person, put them on the /ignore list, and simply avoid the company of assholes, which is a lot easier to do on the web than in meatspace. It’s utterly dysfunctional and toxic to feel the need to a) make that person not say those things ever again and b) feel that you are entitled to have that person listen to you or respond to your arguments and/or insults to the point that you’re stalking them around the internet (and, in the case of Gamergate for example, enjoining others to stalk them as well). ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/204 "2019-10-19T17:09:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not really. Even on the internet, bubbles and semi-private spaces exist even when they’re technically open public spaces. Like, in your example/conspiracty theory about young nubile persons of color college girls trash talking all white men for the benefit of their friends and followers on the twitters, you (the middle aged antifeminist trog) have no real reason to be there, read their shit or stumble upon that content unless you’re friends with said college girl or you’re directed to go and look at what those people are saying by no doubt well intentioned twitter users. In other words, unless you set out looking for outrage and stupid people to be outraged by (though, again, I’ve yet to meet the prophecized shrieking manhating feminazi. And I’m actually a middle aged white guy who’s back in college, where they supposedly nest). That’s on **you**. > Similarly, if you’re set to harass someone because of what they said on one forum, look up which other forums they frequent and start some shit there, then the home analogy works perfectly fine as well. At that point you’re invading a community for the sole purpose of being a dick and turning it into a hostile space, not just for the person you’re harassing, but everyone else there as well. > > Whereas what \*normal \*people do on the interwebs when they read tweets they deem to be assholish by people who are assholes is… move away, with or without leaving one “well fuck YOU” comment. But don’t follow that person, put them on the /ignore list, and simply avoid the company of assholes, which is a lot easier to do on the web than in meatspace. It’s utterly dysfunctional and toxic to feel the need to a) make that person not say those things ever again and b) feel that you are entitled to have that person listen to you or respond to your arguments and/or insults to the point that you’re stalking them around the internet (and, in the case of Gamergate for example, enjoining others to stalk them as well). I disagree with that. If you post on a public forum the public has every right to participate. You can create closed spaces easily enough if that’s what you wish. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/205 "2019-10-19T17:13:14Z")
As I said, many people believe they ought to have the right to broadcast any insults they feel like spewing on an open area of Twitter, and for this to attract as many likeminded strangers as possible to join the amen chorus, while simultaneously being protected from any objection presented by those who are the targets of the insults. I call bullshit on that. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/206 "2019-10-19T17:18:58Z")
So brave! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/207 "2019-10-19T17:47:49Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > So brave! Are you sealioning? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/208 "2019-10-19T18:08:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As I said, many people believe they ought to have the right to broadcast any insults they feel like spewing on an open area of Twitter, and for this to attract as many likeminded strangers as possible to join the amen chorus, while simultaneously being protected from any objection presented by those who are the targets of the insults. I call bullshit on that. If there is anything missing from the cartoon, it is the implied part of the man who for sure has already dealt with bad faith harasser seals. > **[Why Sealioning Is Bad](http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/)** > > Chances are you've seen this comic by David Malki if you frequent Twitter at all these days. It even coined a new verb - "sealioning" - to describe the act of jumping into a discussion with demands for evidence and... > [@](#): > > The biggest reason why people hate sealioning is because responding to it is a complete waste of time. > > It’s an insidious trap. Responding to questions asked reasonably is, of course, a natural thing for people to do. I like to do it myself; educating others is generally pretty entertaining, especially if they are receptive to learning. Dismissing those questions can appear condescending or rude, especially if you actually are condescending or rude. > > Of course, these questions are not asked because the person genuinely wants to know. If they did, they would do their own digging based on your statements, and only ask for obscure or difficult-to-discover information. This is the “debate principle”; when you go to a debate, you educate yourself on the topics at hand, and only request evidence when a claim is either quite outlandish or unflinchingly obscure. > > No, these questions are asked to make you waste your time. It works, too; I’ve responded to sealions before, answering all their questions and claims for evidence, only to be greeted by even more willful ignorance. It’s a way to force you into responding to questions phrased neutrally but asked in bad faith. > > So what does asking in bad faith mean? > > When you ask a question in bad faith, you are essentially looking for a way to demean, degrade, or otherwise destroy your target. A good example of an obviously bad faith question is the perennial favorite “When did you stop beating your wife?” as it instantly casts doubt upon the person asked the question. > > However, it’s easy to ask a question in bad faith using reasoned, good faith practices. Neutral phrasing does not always guarantee a question is asked in good faith. This is extremely obvious in documented sealioning; the target responds, only for the questioner to immediately grill them for more information, misinterpret the answer, or dismiss it entirely. > > The purpose of sealioning never to actually learn or become more informed. The purpose is to interrogate. Much like actual interrogators, sealioners bombard the target with question after question, digging and digging until the target either says something stupid or is so pissed off that they react in the extreme. [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/buzzword/entries/sea-lion.html](https://www.macmillandictionary.com/buzzword/entries/sea-lion.html) > [@](#): > > in an online conversation, repeatedly asking a person questions or making comments which suggest that you are interested in what they are talking about, but are actually intended to annoy them > **[How to handle a troll … and neuter a sea lion](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/18/how-to-handle-a-troll-and-neuter-a-sea-lion-dealing-with-online-attacks-astroturfine-trolljacking)** > > From asking innocent questions before mounting an attack to inciting online abuse by others, trolling is entering a new, subtler era. Here’s how to deal with it > [@](#): > > Sea lioning is the process of killing with dogged kindness and manufactured ignorance by asking questions, then turning on the victim in an instant. “In this, the perpetrator endlessly nitpicks and relentlessly pursues the topic, but oh so very politely and, when the target finally gets annoyed and retaliates, the sea lion takes on the wronged victim of abuse role,” says Hardaker. > > The solution is a simple one: just don’t engage with the troll in the first place. However, this can be difficult to do – a suspected sea lion may in fact just be a genuinely curious individual looking to learn more. So rather than ignoring them outright or devoting precious time to discussing the individual merits and drawbacks of a point with them, courteously directing them to a third-party resource – a couple of links to news stories about the matter at hand – can help nullify their attempts to derail your day. > > What to say: “Here’s a peer-reviewed, academically rigorous link explaining all the information you need. Have a great day!” _Block_ ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/209 "2019-10-19T18:26:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I disagree with that. If you post on a public forum the public has every right to participate. You can create closed spaces easily enough if that’s what you wish. Who said anything about rights ? It’s about being a jerk. Nobody said you didn’t have a right to be a jerk. We just all wish you didn’t avail yourself of that right, on account of it being, by some accounts, a little jerkish and annoying to fucking everyone else but you. Actually there actually \*\*is \*\*a rule here about not being a jerk, so there you go. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/210 "2019-10-19T18:27:32Z")
GIGO’s cites in no way respond to my point, and by extension don’t actually address what is portrayed in the comic: > [@](#): > > Of course, these questions are not asked because the person genuinely wants to know. If they did, they would do their own digging based on your statements, and only ask for obscure or difficult-to-discover information. How would the sea lion do his own digging to find out why the woman doesn’t like sea lions? Why would you assume he is insincere in wondering if she actually knows any sea lions personally? Again, you and the people at these cites clearly want it to mean something completely different from what is directly portrayed in the comic. Just get another term then! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/211 "2019-10-19T18:31:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As I said, many people believe they ought to have the right to broadcast any insults they feel like spewing on an open area of Twitter, and for this to attract as many likeminded strangers as possible to join the amen chorus, while simultaneously being protected from any objection presented by those who are the targets of the insults. I call bullshit on that. For the umpteenth time, merely responding to someone or engaging someone who you feel are Wrong On The Internet is not the issue. You keep trying to assert that “oh well anyone who says anything to WOC feminists is called a sealion !”, but that’s simply not true. The problem isn’t with objecting, but in the way and the extent you’re objecting and the specific form that objection takes. Trolling and harassment is not OK. If you are not trolling those WOC feminazis and if you’re not harassing them and following them around to bombard them with “polite” questions asked in bad faith, **WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU**. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/212 "2019-10-19T18:33:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > GIGO’s cites in no way respond to my point, and by extension don’t actually address what is portrayed in the comic: > > How would the sea lion do his own digging to find out why the woman doesn’t like sea lions? Why would you assume he is insincere in wondering if she actually knows any sea lions personally? > > Again, you and the people at these cites clearly want it to mean something completely different from what is directly portrayed in the comic. Just get another term then! Nope, clearly you are willfully missing about what the man in the cartoon clearly implies, **He** knows beforehand about what sealions do, and they are not going to do it in good faith; it is also clear that you do not like to deal with the points the cites make. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/213 "2019-10-19T18:49:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Nope. Just that HD is clearly engaging in obnoxious trolling with those thread titles (I didn’t read the actual OPs and I doubt they would change my mind). I see no parallel with the sea lion comic. > … I specifically asked about whether it fits with the definition that **Bone** and **Ravenman** supplied, not the comic. Man, your reading comprehension could use some help – you read that comic and think it’s about white men for some reason and you read my post and think it’s about the comic. I suppose we all read with filters on but, man, yours are strong. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/214 "2019-10-19T18:50:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > None of these are questions, thus I don’t need to respond. You’re right, I’m actually not all that great at this trolling thing. Try again: Why won’t you wear red? You claim that you have nothing against red, but your shirts and ties are all blue, those aren’t the actions of someone who doesn’t have anything against red. How can you say that you have nothing against red, when you are obviously biased toward blue? > [@](#): > > I don’t consider asking someone to define what they are posting and why they are posting it as a disruption. If I have already defined what I am posting, then asking me to explain it over and over again to _you_ satisfaction is disruptive. Using treason to mean “betrayal” is entirely valid. It is in the dictionary and everything. That I am not using treason in the way that you want it to be defined is your problem, not mine. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that only people who don’t want to actually explain their opinion on a topic would consider it disruptive, since it generally looks to me that they only want people to agree with them without any thought involved. Well, that’s just poor observation on your part. People explain their opinions on topics all the time. What you are looking for here is not someone to explain their opinion, it is to justify their opinion to your satisfaction. > [@](#): > > That’s fair. That makes rebuttals simple - “I don’t agree with you that betraying the Kurds is treason.” And that’s fine, if you have a narrow definition of the word treason, and you are only willing to use that narrow definition while discussing issues with others. But forcing everyone else to use the terminology that you prefer is not. > [@](#): > > My guess is at that point, a poster would say “Of course it’s treason you Trump lover!” because now it seems like we are moving more toward a “Just agree with me or else I will call you a sealioning troll!” type of subject. Your guess is not a cite. > [@](#): > > A more productive conversation would be > > You: We shouldn’t betray the Kurds because of such and such reasons. > > Me: I agree, or, I disagree. Right, which is why, when instead of explaining why you agree or disagree why we should betray the Kurds, you instead focus on a single word that was not used in a way that you approve of, you are not contributing to a productive conversation. If you feel that something is hyperbole, then get over it. If it merits a mention, then mention and get over it. To focus on what you feel is hyperbole is to derail the conversation. For instance Me: We shouldn’t betray the Kurds because of such and such reasons. What we did is treason. Which part of that post should you focus on? You already said how you would reply to the first, but adding the second tends to make you ignore the first sentence, in order to focus on the second that contains word choice that you disapprove of. > [@](#): > > But it seems to me that people like to use the worst possible words to describe something they think is bad, and when called on it, get defensive and now start saying “sealioning!” Ah, worst possible words, you say? Now that is hyperbole. There are worse possible words that people could use to describe things. Just because you do not agree that they are appropriate words, or that the words are stronger than is merited by what they describe, does not make them inaccurate, nor does it make them “the worst possible”. > [@](#): > > See the “Concentration camp” thread for an example. See “Death Camps” for example. :rolleyes: Concentration camp is a very accurate term for holding a bunch of people in high density living arrangements. That it has some baggage that it picked up because Nazis used concentration camps is not the fault of someone who accurately describes something happening. Once again, this is an example of objecting to a word or term, not because it is wrong or inaccurate, but only because you don’t like it. This serves only as a distraction from the discussion as to whether or not the detentions are justified and the living conditions are humane. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > That’s what **Humpty Dumpty** said. That’s **not** what he said. > [@octopus](#): > > I disagree with that. If you post on a public forum the public has every right to participate. You can create closed spaces easily enough if that’s what you wish. So, your message is: Stay out of public unless you are willing to be harassed and stalked? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/215 "2019-10-19T19:42:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes So you acknowledge objecting and questioning is not “literally all he is doing”. Was that so hard? What it’s a metaphor for is irrelevant. And only unclear to some people, I didn’t have a problem getting exactly what was being conveyed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/216 "2019-10-19T19:46:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, your message is: Stay out of public unless you are willing to be harassed and stalked? Why am I reminded of [**Cervaise** vs the Telemarketer?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=51270) “I have a butthole, too, but that doesn’t imply I want a running jigsaw inserted into it.” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/217 "2019-10-19T20:55:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What it’s a metaphor for is irrelevant. It most certainly is not. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Man, your reading comprehension could use some help – you read that comic and think it’s about white men for some reason and you read my post and think it’s about the comic. I still firmly believe my interpretation of the comic is a solid inference, but I can acknowledge that it is my perception of the subtext rather than being inarguably the plain meaning of the text. For you to insist you can make confident proclamations about “sealioning” even when they directly contradict what is shown in the comic is a very tenuous proposition indeed. With the comic so recent and the term still unknown to most people, it’s just not credible to claim that the meaning of this term is so starkly at odds with what we see laid out in the comic. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/218 "2019-10-19T21:44:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > but that doesn’t imply I want a running jigsaw inserted into it." You should try it though. At least once. It’s hot. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/219 "2019-10-19T21:57:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Again, you and the people at these cites clearly want it to mean something completely different from what is directly portrayed in the comic. Just get another term then! Why ? We all understand what it’s about. Wr all grok what people the comic is lampooning. You’re literally the only person white knighting sealions. Why should we give a lonely fuck what your interpretation of the term, or the comic, is ? Again, \*\*WHY \*\*? To give you an absurd example, imagine we were all discussing fracking and the damage it does to the environment and the measurable impact it has (or has not) on local communities ; and you were convinced the word “fracking” really was about Battlestar Galactica and its fandom. In that context, wouldn’t you feel the fool going on and on and on about Cylons and the methods with which the protagonists of the series deal with them, when all of us are talking about oil companies ? Because that’s really where you’re at. Open yourself to the possibilty, remote as it may seem, that you might conceivably possibly in some respect be wrong. On the internet. It’s not the end of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837/220 "2019-10-19T21:58:57Z")
Kobal, I think he has you on ignore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sealioning/841837.md?page=12)