# Sean Goldman in Brazil **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758 "2009-12-18T17:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/1 "2009-12-18T17:28:08Z")
As I understand it, Sean Goldman is a 9-year old boy whose mother took him to Brazil 5 years ago on the pretext of a vacation. While there, she divorced Sean’s father (David Goldman) and married another man. David continues to live with this other man, despite his mother’s death a year ago, and David’s so-far futile efforts to get his son back from a foreign country. I’d like to hear the other side of the story. The way the American media are presenting it, it is quite obvious that this other man and the Brazilian gov’t are evil kidnappers. There’s gotta be more to the story, but I find nothing in Wikipedia nor in the Straight Dope. Any suggestions where I should look? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/2 "2009-12-18T17:34:28Z")
There is no more to the story. His adoptive father wants to keep him in the family he’s always known. His biological father wants to raise him himself. Those are the two sides to the story. ETA: I’m not sure “adoptive” is the right adjective as I doubt he was ever formally adopted. The point is that he is more familiar with his current family, even though he is biologically unrelated to them. However, this is their fault, as they seem to have put a lot of stress on the kid about visiting his biological father. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/3 "2009-12-18T17:40:18Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > The way the American media are presenting it, it is quite obvious that this other man and the Brazilian gov’t are evil kidnappers. You need to understand that, in the media, any time a US citizen is subject to foreign laws, those foreign laws are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over American. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/4 "2009-12-18T17:46:39Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > You need to understand that, in the media, any time a US citizen is subject to foreign laws, those foreign laws are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over American. Just to be fair, this sentence would be equally accurate if you changed a few words, as follows: You need to understand that, in the media, any time a [Citizen of Country A] is subject to [Laws of Country B], those [Laws of Country B] are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over [Citizen of Country A]. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/5 "2009-12-18T17:48:21Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:4, topic:521758”] Just to be fair, this sentence would be equally accurate if you changed a few words, as follows: You need to understand that, in the media, any time a [Citizen of Country A] is subject to [Laws of Country B], those [Laws of Country B] are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over [Citizen of Country A]. [/QUOTE] No, you see, I don’t actually think that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/6 "2009-12-18T17:49:26Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > You need to understand that, in the media, any time a US citizen is subject to foreign laws, those foreign laws are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over American. I do understand that. That’s exactly why I presume that there IS another side to the story, one in which Brazil’s actions make sense. Personally, I do understand the trauma of taking a child away from the people he has known for the past 4 years. But if they deal with it well, that will go away, and doesn’t compare to the trauma of his father spending _the rest of his life_ without his son. I’d also like to know what’s been going on for the past 5 years, like whether or not the father has been able to visit him, and similar questions. For all I know, the father is a no-good-nik who had zero interest in the kid until the mother died and now the father wants a hand in the kid’s inheritance from the wealthy mother. Okay, I just made that up. But who knows? That’s why I want ot know more than what the TV can cram into a commercial for the 11 O’Clock News. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/7 "2009-12-18T17:52:08Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Personally, I do understand the trauma of taking a child away from the people he has known for the past 4 years. But if they deal with it well, that will go away, and doesn’t compare to the trauma of his father spending _the rest of his life_ without his son. I’d also like to know what’s been going on for the past 5 years, like whether or not the father has been able to visit him, and similar questions. Frankly, the modern jurisprudence in this country (don’t know about int’l conventions or Brazillian law) cares not one iota about how it makes the parents feel. It’s all analyzed under the “best interest of the child” standard - you don’t make a comparison to how bad it makes the parent feel. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/8 "2009-12-18T18:12:45Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Frankly, the modern jurisprudence in this country (don’t know about int’l conventions or Brazillian law) cares not one iota about how it makes the parents feel. It’s all analyzed under the “best interest of the child” standard - you don’t make a comparison to how bad it makes the parent feel. Yeah, but what’s in the child’s best interests today is not necessarily the same as what would be in his best interests twenty years from now. Short-term and long-term goals are often at odds with each other. Anyway, to bring this back to GQ… I’m looking for facts. Like whether or not this other guy ever adopted Sean under Brazilian law. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/9 "2009-12-18T18:13:54Z")
Under [the Hague Treaty](http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=24), it’s called kidnapping. The US and Brazil are both signatories to the treaty. Sean’s son was kidnapped. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/10 "2009-12-18T18:24:14Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > You need to understand that, in the media, any time a US citizen is subject to foreign laws, those foreign laws are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over American. Roman Polanski begs to differ, from his chalet of course. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/11 "2009-12-18T18:29:30Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Under [the Hague Treaty](http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conventions.text&cid=24), it’s called kidnapping. > > The US and Brazil are both signatories to the treaty. > > Sean’s _(sic)_ son was kidnapped. More evidence that there’s gotta be more to the story. If it was that open-and-shut, the Brazilian court probably wouldn’t have ruled agaisnt the father. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/12 "2009-12-18T18:45:21Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > More evidence that there’s gotta be more to the story. If it was that open-and-shut, the Brazilian court probably wouldn’t have ruled agaisnt the father. The kidnapping family has strong monetary and political ties within the Brazilian system. In other words, charges that the they are buying the court decisions. However, the latest decision does not overturn the lower court’s decision the child must be returned to his natural father. It’s another move just to delay the process. Although biased, why not read directly from the father and supporters —\> [http://bringseanhome.org/](http://bringseanhome.org/) ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/13 "2009-12-18T18:48:53Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > You need to understand that, in the media, any time a US citizen is subject to foreign laws, those foreign laws are presumptively evil/unjust/unfair and result in the complete miscarriage of justice for the royally screwed over American. Please. I seem to remember quite a bit of support for returning Elian Gonzalez to Cuba and his father. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/14 "2009-12-18T19:45:38Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > The way the American media are presenting it, it is quite obvious that this other man and the Brazilian gov’t are evil kidnappers. There’s gotta be more to the story, but I find nothing in Wikipedia nor in the Straight Dope. Why does there “gotta be more to the story”? No evidence has been presented to suggest that David Goldman is anything other than a good father. The Brazilian family doesn’t seem to have any case other than stonewalling and stalling and then claiming that it would be disruptive to remove Sean from the home he’s known for so long … a home that he’s know for so long purely because of their stonewalling and stalling. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/15 "2009-12-18T20:39:13Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Please. I seem to remember quite a bit of support for returning Elian Gonzalez to Cuba and his father. Remind me again: The laws of what jurisdiction where used to adjudicate the return of Elian Gonzalez to Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/16 "2009-12-18T20:41:09Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Why does there “gotta be more to the story”? No evidence has been presented to suggest that David Goldman is anything other than a good father. The Brazilian family doesn’t seem to have any case other than stonewalling and stalling and then claiming that it would be disruptive to remove Sean from the home he’s known for so long … a home that he’s know for so long purely because of their stonewalling and stalling. And I’m _sure_ you’re intimately acquainted with all relevant facts of this case, right? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/17 "2009-12-18T20:53:31Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Remind me again: The laws of what jurisdiction where used to adjudicate the return of Elian Gonzalez to Cuba? That’s irrelevant. The point is that his family in America lost out, and most Americans seemed to have been okay with that. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/18 "2009-12-18T20:54:32Z")
The larger point is that your comment was crass, unimaginative, and added nothing to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/19 "2009-12-18T20:59:04Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > That’s irrelevant. The point is that his family in America lost out, and most Americans seemed to have been okay with that. No, it’s not. Because most Americans have unyielding (or extremely high degrees of) faith in the US judicial system. But once some “foreign” court dares render judgment on one of our own, watch out! US Congressmen will make trips, donation blogs will be set up, and trade sanctions threatened. Remember post 9-11 when we proposed (and enacted) rules that required the photographing of every foreign visitor to this country? Everyone’s cool with it Remember the Brazilian government’s reaction? They made all US citizens suffer the same plight as they entered the country. A US airline captain flicked off the camera as he was being photographed (because, how dare they invade \*\*his \*\*civil liberties like that! [brown dudes, that’s cool, invade away]) and was being threatened with prosecution in Brazil. The numbnuts came out of the woodwork here, with the typical “that’s _so_ unfair!” and other chirpings. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/20 "2009-12-18T21:03:48Z")
Why shouldn’t we have faith in our judicial system? The basic rules and procedures are clear, everyone is familiar with the concept of the burden of proof, and we generally trust in the impartiality and professionalism of our judges. I don’t know enough about Brazil’s justice system to render any opinion on it, but they have to overcome a very basic objection: why is this boy being kept from his biological father? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758.md?page=2)