# Sean Goldman in Brazil **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758 "2009-12-18T17:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/21 "2009-12-18T21:08:37Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I don’t know enough about Brazil’s justice system to render any opinion on it, but they have to overcome a very basic objection: why is this boy being kept from his biological father? Ok, You are rendering opinion on it, right in this sentence. Do you care to guess how many times a day in this country biological parents are kept from their children? And they’re not all abuse cases, either. What do you think would happen if Husband and Wife separated, wife took kid out of state for a year or so, shacked up with New Dude, started to form a life with New Dude. Wife suddenly dies before New Dude can wind up adopting Child (and terminating Husband’s parental rights). Where do you think the Kid is staying? Would you think that it’s _highly_ factually dependent? Do you think that it gets even more convoluted and complicated if it’s a international removal of the child and you have to apply a Convention? You say you don’t know enough about their system, and i’m assuming you’re not well acquainted with the facts, yet you are automatically presuming the case to point towards a screwjob for the american dad. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/22 "2009-12-18T21:14:49Z")
I think that’s as much of the facts as most people have who have heard of this case know: Sean Goldman was taken from his father by his mother to another country, his mother died, and he isn’t being returned to his father. Every country has their own values and way of doing things, but some things remain pretty universal. I’d be willing to bet that the notion that in matters of child custody the biological parent gets deference would be one of those universal ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/23 "2009-12-18T21:17:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I think that’s as much of the facts as most people have who have heard of this case know Yes, which is probably 1% of the facts of this case (slight hyperbole) > [@](#): > > I’d be willing to bet that the notion that in matters of child custody the biological parent gets deference would be one of those universal ideas. It’s not universal. At all. It’s not even universal here. “Best interests of the child” is what you start and stop with. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/24 "2009-12-18T21:19:20Z")
And generally speaking, the child remaining with his biological parents is in his best interests. I don’t see why you’re trying to make that a controversial statement. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/25 "2009-12-18T21:25:54Z")
That’s not what you said. You said “deference” - kind of an important distinction. Regardless, I’ll spell it out: a) virtually all people expressing an opinion on the merits of this case, and the degree of justice or injustice present, have no idea about the workings of Brazilian law and legal procedure. b) virtually all people expressing an opinion on the merits of this case, and the degree of justice or injustice present, have little factual information regarding the occurrences surrounding this case, and almost all of it is coming from a party-in-interest. c) virtually all people expressing an opinion on the merits of this case, and the degree of justice or injustice present, have absolutely no idea what the Hague Convention is, and how its terms do or do not apply to the facts of this case d) thus, virtually all people’s opinions and characterizations in this case, for example characterizations of this as a kidnapping, as a miscarriage of justice, stonewalling, stalling, or bribing, have absolutely no basis to render this opinion or characterization e) people render these judgments, however, because they have a presumptive negative opinion on the merits of foreign justice systems. and this negative opinion, and the biases and prejudices that underlie it, are the only reasons why virtually any one has any interest in these types of cases. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/26 "2009-12-18T21:41:27Z")
You haven’t explained what distinguishes this case from the knee-jerk reaction. Your entire argument seems to be “Jeez Americans, lay off the Brazilians, they can handle things fairly.” Put aside all the stuff about the Hague Convention and your unfounded, broad-brush smear in e), and examine the most important question: why is this boy being kept from his biological father? Now, I’m well aware that that isn’t the only question, and I know a set of procedures have to be followed, whether this was happening in Brazil, Syria, China, or Canada. But it’s the most important question. That’s what people are concerned with, not that Brazil is defying America. Even if Brazil’s courts go through their entire procedure and determine that Sean Goldman should stay in Brazil, plenty of Americans won’t accept that, and it’s not because they think Brazil has an inferior legal system, or because they disagree with some esoteric point of law or procedure, it’s because they’ll believe it’s fundamentally unfair that a child was kept from his biological father. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/27 "2009-12-18T21:54:46Z")
[A New Jersey senator is planning to hold up a trade bill that benefits Brazil](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/18/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5995670.shtml). [CBS interviewed the Brazilian step-dad and grandparents](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/22/crimesider/entry5104145.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/28 "2009-12-18T22:19:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Even if Brazil’s courts go through their entire procedure and determine that Sean Goldman should stay in Brazil, plenty of Americans won’t accept that, and it’s not because they think Brazil has an inferior legal system, or because they disagree with some esoteric point of law or procedure, it’s because they’ll believe it’s fundamentally unfair that a child was kept from his biological father. In your estimation, what’s the reaction from these Americans when the same thing happens in domestic courts? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/29 "2009-12-18T22:29:08Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Now, I’m well aware that that isn’t the only question, and I know a set of procedures have to be followed, whether this was happening in Brazil, Syria, China, or Canada. But it’s the most important question. That’s what people are concerned with, not that Brazil is defying America. Even if Brazil’s courts go through their entire procedure and determine that Sean Goldman should stay in Brazil, plenty of Americans won’t accept that, and it’s not because they think Brazil has an inferior legal system, or because they disagree with some esoteric point of law or procedure, it’s because they’ll believe it’s fundamentally unfair that a child was kept from his biological father. Exactly. David hasn’t even been allowed to SEE his son since his wife took him to Brazil, let alone have custody of him. Without some compelling reason why Sean needs to be denied all contact with his father, it’s hard to see how that’s a fair outcome under the legal system of any country. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/30 "2009-12-18T22:55:07Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > In your estimation, what’s the reaction from these Americans when the same thing happens in domestic courts? It would be highly unlikely in a US court that a biological parent, who is fit to parent (no substance abuse, history of physical abuse, adequate income, etc) and desires to parent, would lose custody to grandparents that took physical custody of the child without the bio dad’s consent. The right of a fit parent to raise their biological children has been held to have Constitutional dimensions. Furthermore, in New Jersey, where Sean Goldman is from, grandparents won’t even be given visitation rights against the wishes of a biological parent, [unless they can affirmatively show the lack of visitation would cause the child harm](http://www.aaml.org/tasks/sites/default/assets/File/docs/articles/Schreiber_-_Grandparents_Visitation_Rights_in_New_Jersey.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Shecky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shecky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shecky)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/31 "2009-12-18T23:48:10Z")
Please remember as well that they were never married in Brazil, so the Brazilian government does not recognize their marriage. It sucks, but that is how their legal system works. Her “new” husband is then the only spouse she has, and custody usually goes to the surviving spouse. Now, her family is well known in Rio for their restaurants, and have a lot of powerful allies. If Mr. Goldman has the birth certificate for Sean saying that he is the father, they can grant custody. REMOVING the child from Brazil is another matter. To take Brazilian citizen minors out of the country, he’s got to apply, unless he can produce a passport from the US, which I’m sure she burned upon arrival. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/32 "2009-12-19T00:16:12Z")
> [@Shecky](#): > > To take Brazilian citizen minors out of the country, he’s got to apply, unless he can produce a passport from the US, which I’m sure she burned upon arrival. But is Sean even a Brazilian citizen? He’s certainly an American citizen by virtue of having been born in the United States, but the fact that he had a Brazilian mother does not automatically grant him status as a Brazilian citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Shecky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shecky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shecky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/33 "2009-12-19T23:47:57Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > But is Sean even a Brazilian citizen? He’s certainly an American citizen by virtue of having been born in the United States, but the fact that he had a Brazilian mother does not automatically grant him status as a Brazilian citizen. Actually, it does. And Sean is also American, which is where it gets sticky. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/34 "2009-12-20T00:13:25Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > [CBS interviewed the Brazilian step-dad and grandparents](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/22/crimesider/entry5104145.shtml). Thanks! This was the first post I’ve seen which presents the Brazilian side of the story. For the benefit of those who didn’t click on it, Sean’s maternal grandmother claims that his parents were not getting along, and that may have been why she left for Brazil. The grandmother also claims that they have no problem allowing the father to visit Sean in Brazil (but she doesn’t need to spell out why they wouldn’t want him bringing Sean back to the US, even for a “visit”). Their Brazilian lawyer was also interviewed, and he told us that prior to the mother’s death, a Brazilian court ruled that what the mother did doesn’t count as a kidnapping. Another part of the story that’s new to me is that although the mother died in childbirth, the girl that she gave birth to survived, and so Sean has a half-sister that he’d be separated from if his father wins custody. I’m not saying that the Brazilian courts are right, but there IS a side to the story that the US media has been mostly quiet about. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/35 "2009-12-20T00:14:36Z")
Thanks to **Shecky** ’s posts also! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/36 "2009-12-20T20:17:06Z")
> [@Shecky](#): > > Actually, it does. And Sean is also American, which is where it gets sticky. No it [doesn’t](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_nationality_law). A person born out of Brazil to a Brazilian parent can get Brazilian citizenship by going through an application process, but it does not occur automatically. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/37 "2009-12-20T20:22:33Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > For the benefit of those who didn’t click on it, Sean’s maternal grandmother claims that his parents were not getting along, and that may have been why she left for Brazil. The grandmother also claims that they have no problem allowing the father to visit Sean in Brazil (but she doesn’t need to spell out why they wouldn’t want him bringing Sean back to the US, even for a “visit”). The grandmother’s statement is at odds with the facts. David has NEVER been allow to see Sean since his mother took him to Brazil, despite repeated efforts. She may be trying to appear reasonable now, in a public interview, but her prior actions suggest that she’s lying. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/38 "2009-12-23T00:49:44Z")
A Brazilian court has ruled in favor of David Goldman. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091223/ap\_on\_re\_la\_am\_ca/lt\_brazil\_us\_custody\_battle](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091223/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_brazil_us_custody_battle) ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/39 "2009-12-23T13:44:04Z")
One data point about Brazil and minors: they are [quite careful to not allow minors to leave the country without the consent of both parents](http://en.brazilny.org/index.php?/consulado/t_c/travel_authorization_for_minors/). This is to prevent kidnappings similar to what happened in this case. We (America) are not nearly as careful about this. Specifically, whenever a minor leaves Brazil, his or her guardian must present a letter that is signed by the parents if not present, and properly authenticated, regardless of where they parents live or their nationality. My brother-in-law is not Brazilian and he lives here in NJ. Whenever my SIL travels alone to Brazil with her son, his father must go to NYC and get [this special letter (pdf)](http://en.brazilny.org/force-download.php?file=forms/fillableautorizacaoviagemmenor.pdf) stamped at the Brazilian consulate. Even though she is traveling from here to Rio on vacation, she would not be able to come back with her son if she were to lose this letter. We do not have such strict regulations here. Two years ago my family was traveling with two kids: my nephew and the American daughter of friends. Surprisingly, nobody cared about the girl here or in Brazil, once it was established she was not Brazilian (she certainly _looks_ Brazilian, and the airport security dude kept insisting she was). On the other hand, my nephew still was required to have his letter, even though he is also an American citizen. Here, a 14yo girl was allowed to travel the world with strangers—as long as she had a valid passport, but in Brazil they are very protective of their children. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > No it [doesn’t](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_nationality_law). A person born out of Brazil to a Brazilian parent can get Brazilian citizenship by going through an application process, but it does not occur automatically. I didn’t know that. My nephew’s American and Brazilian passports were issued when he was a baby. I’m certain that there are nuances not reflected in the one relevant sentence of the Wikipedia article, but it never occurred to me that he was anything but Brazilian and American from birth. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758/40 "2009-12-23T20:22:30Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Remind me again: The laws of what jurisdiction where used to adjudicate the return of Elian Gonzalez to Cuba? Not sure I understand this question (I know it wasn’t asked of me, but I’m interested in this thread). The laws of the United States were used to adjudicate the return of Elian Gonzalez. The case went through the federal system, which consistently ruled that the Miami relatives had no standing to speak for the boy or to file asylum petitions on his behalf, and that there was no authority that permitted the child to remain (or be kept) in the U.S. against his father’s wishes. I’m not sure I understand the point of the question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sean-goldman-in-brazil/521758.md?page=3)