# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/301 "2009-10-21T20:24:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, yeah, but a good offensive line is a good offensive line. If you’re good at run blocking, you’ll be at least okay in pass protection, and vice versa. This could not be farther form the truth. Such a claim is patently absurd. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > I don’t think you can exclude Favre from the list. He’s 8th in the league in butt-on-turf time. Detroit quarterbacks en masse would surpass that but Cutler, and by extension Forte, have enjoyed better line performance than Favre and Pederson. As evidenced here. The Vikes, the very best run blocking team in the league bar none, have shown some deficiencies in the pass protection. They aren’t terrible at it and Favre creates a few sacks by holding the ball, but certainly good run blocking is of no import for pass protection. On the flipside the Bears are actually average at pass protection. Omiyale sucks at blitz pickups (and everything else) and Pace has been edge rushed a bit too much, but on the whole with help from Forte the Bears pass protection is solidly in the middle of the pack, maybe above average considering the lack of a run threat. The run blocking on the other hand is easily the worst in the division and likely one of the worst in the league. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/302 "2009-10-21T20:42:45Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I don’t think you can exclude Favre from the list. He’s 8th in the league in butt-on-turf time. Detroit quarterbacks en masse would surpass that but Cutler, and by extension Forte, have enjoyed better line performance than Favre and Pederson. Favre took more sacks early in the year because he didn’t know the offense and wasn’t comfortable throwing the ball before his receiver made his cut. In any case, here are the sacks per attempt numbers for all four teams: Vikings - 0.08 Lions - 0.10 Bears - 0.11 Packers - 0.13 Curious. It seems the Vikings are actually pretty good in pass protection. Go figure. > [@Omniscient](#): > > This could not be farther form the truth. Such a claim is patently absurd. Don’t be ridiculous. The claim is obviously true. Offensive lines which are able to physically dominate against the run will also be able to physically dominate against the pass. Yes, big road-grading types may have trouble with small Freeney-esque speed rushers, but very few teams have three-down rush ends with Freeney’s speed and none have two of them. The techniques don’t carry over, but the physical skills do, for the most part, and good coaching is good coaching. In any case, it stands to reason that strong running teams won’t give up as many sacks because the defense can’t focus on the pass. > [@](#): > > As evidenced here. The Vikes, the very best run blocking team in the league bar none, have shown some deficiencies in the pass protection. They aren’t terrible at it and Favre creates a few sacks by holding the ball, but certainly good run blocking is of no import for pass protection. If by “not terrible at it” you mean “better than the rest of the division”, then you’re absolutely right. See above. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/303 "2009-10-21T21:37:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t be ridiculous. The claim is obviously true. Offensive lines which are able to physically dominate against the run will also be able to physically dominate against the pass. Yes, big road-grading types may have trouble with small Freeney-esque speed rushers, but very few teams have three-down rush ends with Freeney’s speed and none have two of them. > > The techniques don’t carry over, but the physical skills do, for the most part, and good coaching is good coaching. In any case, it stands to reason that strong running teams won’t give up as many sacks because the defense can’t focus on the pass. This flies in the face of everything anyone who’s studied and scouted the league says. Elite players can do both. They are extraordinarily rare and it explains why OTs who can do both are so intensely coveted in the draft and free agency. It’s no coincidence that OTs are the second highest position in the NFL after QBs. The vast majority of prospects and players are said to be better at one or the other, usually those better at blocking the run get groomed as OGs and those better at handling the pass are groomed as OTs. When a player can do both they get huge contracts and are franchise guys, very few do both well, occasionally people end up being mediocre at both. When a team has an O Line that excels at both they tend to win Super Bowls. Tell me, how many lines in the NFL right now do both well? ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/304 "2009-10-22T11:09:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t be ridiculous. The claim is obviously true. Offensive lines which are able to physically dominate against the run will also be able to physically dominate against the pass. I’ve been watching football for over 25 years and I’ve never heard that there’s any correlation between the two skill-sets. My guess is that _individuals_ are much more likely to have a stronger correlation than entire O-Lines, as your pass protection is only as good as your weakest link on a given play. That said, it looks like the Vikings OL has been above average at both this year. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/305 "2009-10-22T12:32:33Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This flies in the face of everything anyone who’s studied and scouted the league says. Elite players can do both. They are extraordinarily rare and it explains why OTs who can do both are so intensely coveted in the draft and free agency. It’s no coincidence that OTs are the second highest position in the NFL after QBs. The vast majority of prospects and players are said to be better at one or the other, usually those better at blocking the run get groomed as OGs and those better at handling the pass are groomed as OTs. When a player can do both they get huge contracts and are franchise guys, very few do both well, occasionally people end up being mediocre at both. When a team has an O Line that excels at both they tend to win Super Bowls. > > Tell me, how many lines in the NFL right now do both well? Sorry. I’m with \*\*Omni \*\*on this one. Even logically, if a defensive line is good against the run and not good at pass rushing, why couldn’t an offensive line be good at run blocking and now pass blocking? They’re two different skill sets. They might be similar, but they’re definitely different. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/306 "2009-10-22T15:41:11Z")
## Food for thought, cribbed from another site: The Vikings have faced these QB’s so far this season: Rookie Matthew Stafford, Brady Quinn, Shawn Hill, Kyle Bollar and 2nd year Joe Flacco; who have combined for a 91 passer rating against the Vikings (the Vikings defense is 23rd in the NFL in passer rating given up). The Vikings are 19th in points allowed against those QB’s. The Viking secondary is only 24th against the pass. The Vikings defense is 27th in NFL in completions surrendered to the QB’s listed above. The Vikings are 31st in plays over 20 yards surrendered to the QB’s listed above. The Vikings seconday is 26th in completion % given up to those QB’s listed above. In contrast to the list above the viking pass defense still has to face: Manning, Warner, Cutler twice, Rodgers, Hasselback and Palmer, plus the NFL’s passing yardage leader Roethlisberger, on Sunday. ## And that poor Viking secondary is now injured. I’m not much of a Steeler fan, but the Vikes’ winning streak ends here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/307 "2009-10-22T15:51:49Z")
Those passing numbers are skewed by the fact that the Vikings have been playing with a lot of big leads and prevent defenses. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/308 "2009-10-22T18:09:31Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > The Vikings have faced these QB’s so far this season: Rookie Matthew Stafford, Brady Quinn, Shawn Hill, Kyle Bollar and 2nd year Joe Flacco; who have combined for a 91 passer rating against the Vikings (the Vikings defense is 23rd in the NFL in passer rating given up). You forgot that Aaron Rodgers threw up a 110.6 against them in a LOSING effort week 3. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/309 "2009-10-22T19:07:00Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > I’ve been watching football for over 25 years and I’ve never heard that there’s any correlation between the two skill-sets. My guess is that _individuals_ are much more likely to have a stronger correlation than entire O-Lines, as your pass protection is only as good as your weakest link on a given play. > > That said, it looks like the Vikings OL has been above average at both this year. 😃 > [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Sorry. I’m with \*\*Omni \*\*on this one. Even logically, if a defensive line is good against the run and not good at pass rushing, why couldn’t an offensive line be good at run blocking and now pass blocking? > > They’re two different skill sets. They might be similar, but they’re definitely different. Oh, fine. You win, **Omni**. > [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > Food for thought, cribbed from another site… You’d think the author would have spelled Shaun Hill and Kyle Boller’s names correctly after putting in all that statistical research. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/310 "2009-10-22T19:28:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh, fine. You win, **Omni**. Sheesh, you’d think I was Rush Limbaugh with the way people begrudgingly agree with me around here. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/311 "2009-10-22T19:30:08Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Sheesh, you’d think I was Rush Limbaugh with the way people begrudgingly agree with me around here. Hey! You! Away from the trade charts and that picture of Donovan McNabb! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/312 "2009-10-22T20:58:03Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Sheesh, you’d think I was Rush Limbaugh with the way people begrudgingly agree with me around here. Well, you know, \*\*unwashed brain \*\*and **LOUNE** have been very desirous for you to win a football argument… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/313 "2009-10-23T16:12:28Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This flies in the face of everything anyone who’s studied and scouted the league says. Elite players can do both. They are extraordinarily rare and it explains why OTs who can do both are so intensely coveted in the draft and free agency. It’s no coincidence that OTs are the second highest position in the NFL after QBs. The vast majority of prospects and players are said to be better at one or the other, usually those better at blocking the run get groomed as OGs and those better at handling the pass are groomed as OTs. When a player can do both they get huge contracts and are franchise guys, very few do both well, occasionally people end up being mediocre at both. When a team has an O Line that excels at both they tend to win Super Bowls. > > Tell me, how many lines in the NFL right now do both well? Is this another slam on the Lions? Well they can’t run block or pass black . But they can get penalties. It is all a big conspiracy against the Lions by Blesto V, the refs , the linesmen. the announcers and the owners, and the NFL rules committee who sit around designing new rules to hurt our chances. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/314 "2009-10-23T16:15:13Z")
Based on their sacks allowed, it seems like they _can_ pass block. Of course, it may just be one of those situations where the quarterback is getting hit after two Mississippis on every play but getting rid of the ball fast, but given that Stafford is a rookie and Culpepper has a slow release and hasn’t played much with that team, I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/315 "2009-10-23T16:24:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Is this another slam on the Lions? Well they can’t run block or pass black . But they can get penalties. It is all a big conspiracy against the Lions by Blesto V, the refs , the linesmen. the announcers and the owners, and the NFL rules committee who sit around designing new rules to hurt our chances. I’m surprised all those guys could take the time off from making sure that James Harrison, who gets held on every single play, never gets a call. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/316 "2009-10-23T16:25:28Z")
Okay, that was funny. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/317 "2009-10-23T17:04:00Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m surprised all those guys could take the time off from making sure that James Harrison, who gets held on every single play, never gets a call. Everybody needs a hug. He is getting a break there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/318 "2009-10-23T17:12:40Z")
That too. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/319 "2009-10-25T14:25:40Z")
Sunday, Sunday, Sunday!!! As much as I hate the Steelers and would love to see us cut down the defending champs, our 6-0 start gives us the luxury of being able to look past this game to the much more important divisional matchup the following week against the stupid Packers. My real hope is that we come out of today healthy. Hopefully we’ll have Harvin and Winfield back for next week. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/320 "2009-10-25T16:51:14Z")
It’s more important, but’s it’s not _much_ more important in any real sense; 15-1 will get you the #1 seed regardless of whether you beat the Packers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=17)