# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/641 "2009-11-23T21:10:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Again, why? He’s a slow, tedious guy who is a workhouse, but who doesn’t break tackles, isn’t fast enough, and has little to no moves. He’s only second behind Steve Slaton in most shitty ypc among running backs with more than 100 carries. Cedric Benson was all of those things before he had a line in front of him. Shawn Alexander was all of those things. Larry Johnson was all of those things in his prime. There have been a lot of guys that have been successful in that mold. Tedious workhorses can be valuable players when used properly with support. > [@](#): > > While, as a Packer fan, I’m more than happy to see him be your RB every time we play, I don’t see him as anywhere near a top 20 back. Please name me 20+ backs who you’d rather have as your starting RB. Forte is an excellent pass catcher, route runner and blocker. He hardly ever fumbles and is extremely durable. These are assets which aren’t terribly common. I wish he was more dynamic or more bruising, of course, but not everyone is Adrian Peterson. > [@](#): > > He’s in his fourth year, with 47 starts behind him. It’s not like he’s Chad Henne, Matt Cassel, Shaun Hill, or even Trent Edwards (who all have a higher passer rating than Cutler by the way). He’s 24th rated QB in the NFL. He is leading the league in picks. And you have him as a top 10 QB? Wow. I agree the clock is ticking. Edwards’ rating is [just below](http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/quarterbackRating/year/2009/seasontype/2) Cutler’s this year. His career rating is well above all those except for Cassel who was boosted by his Pats stint and they are close. His career rating is similar to McNabb, Hasselbeck, and Ryan’s and significantly better than Eli’s. I never said he was a top 10 QB. I said I’d rather have him than about 8 other guys, give or take, meaning that I’d rather have him on this Bears team right now. Guys like Favre, Warner, Hasselbeck and McNabb are at the end of their careers and would be gone before the Bears are over the hump. There are a few older guys around that I’d take who still have time left and a few younger guys who seem to be maturing faster than Cutler. There aren’t many guys out there you can build around with similar upside. > [@](#): > > Sure there is upside there. Luckily for him, his problems aren’t with the physical aspect, but his fucked up head. He doesn’t make good decisions, he’s a brat, he’s not a leader, and if he gets rattled, he’s useless. Maybe someday he’ll put all that behind him and become a good QB, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that, and the Bears gave up plenty to get Kyle Boller ver. 2.1. I’d rather have a guy who could mature and could get his head right than a guy who will always have a crappy arm, lead feet and be injured half the time. You want to write him off, but it’s just WAY too early for that. > [@](#): > > As a return guy, for sure. As a slot receiver, maybe. Think Dante Hall. Hester is making a ton of money, too damn much, but I promise you 20 other teams would be willing to pay it to him given the chance right now. That’s what I’m saying. No one would have paid Dante Hall that kind of money. He’s already 5 times the WR Hall ever was. You seem to be under the impression I thought Hester was the next Randy Moss. I’ve always been very clear on what Hester is capable of and I don’t disagree with you and he’s being used all wrong in this system. > [@](#): > > 1. Hester is a great returner, but a below average WR and most definitely not a #1 WR, and that he’s overpaid. 2) Cutler wasn’t, and isn’t, worth 2 first round picks, a third round pick, and a starting QB. 3) Forte is a below average RB who isn’t and won’t be, a starting caliber RB. I think you have a very misguided opinion of what a average WR is. There are some really good ones but there’s also a ton of really crappy ones. Hester is a long ways from Moss, Johnson 1 & 2, Colston, Jackson and several other guys. But he’s still above average. Have you seen the guys that Oakland, Cleveland, St Louis, Tampa Bay, Tennessee, Washington and Miami are trotting out there? Additionally, there are only maybe 5 teams out there where Hester wouldn’t be an upgrade over their #2 WR. He is overpaid and the Bears need another guy to compliment him and they need to use him better but you’re nuts to think he’s below replacement level. Rinse, lather and repeat regarding Forte and point 3. He’s not elite but most teams in the league would love to have the guy ahead of the guys they are stuck with now. Hell, you could make a case that the Chargers, Saints, Colts and Pats would all be better with him right now. You constantly confuse “not elite” with “sucks” and “below average”. As for Cutler’s worth, time will tell. It is and was a huge gamble. 10 games into it is too early to judge, especially considering all the other huge issues on this team. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying these guys shouldn’t be on rosters, but you were the one saying Forte was miles ahead of Ryan Grant and Kevin Smith in the NFC North (still maintaining that)? You’re the one saying Cutler is top 9 QB and Forte is a top 15 RB, both of which are not borne out by the stats or the team’s record. Basically, I want you to recognize reality. I don’t think I said he was miles ahead of Grant and Smith. IIRC the conversation was that it was something like: Peterson \>\>\> Forte \> Grant = Smith. And I’d certainly promote Grant based on the way things have played out. Forte’s playing much slower and worse than last year when running between the tackles. His O-line is much worse and Cutler is taking away from his effectiveness in the passing game. But I’m not really to pull up shop and dump the guy yet. I will argue that there are at least 17 teams out there that would probably trade their #1 RB for Forte straight up if given the offer, which is the point I was making. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/642 "2009-11-23T23:47:33Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Can’t argue this at all. It’s unclear to me if Cutler is specifically unwilling to check down or throw to the RB in designed screens and flares or if there’s something weird with the playcalling/scheme that makes it impractical. Forte is excellent at both but even last season most of those opportunities came on 3rd and longs when Orton was basically giving up on a play before a punt. Things are similar this year. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in Denver since none of their running backs could catch passes. However, now that he’s got a back who we already know is an excellent pass-catcher, I’ve got to believe he just doesn’t have enough touch. > [@Hamlet](#): > > He’s in his fourth year, with 47 starts behind him. It’s not like he’s Chad Henne, Matt Cassel, Shaun Hill, or even Trent Edwards (who all have a higher passer rating than Cutler by the way). He’s 24th rated QB in the NFL. He is leading the league in picks. And you have him as a top 10 QB? Wow. > > Sure there is upside there. Luckily for him, his problems aren’t with the physical aspect, but his fucked up head. He doesn’t make good decisions, he’s a brat, he’s not a leader, and if he gets rattled, he’s useless. Maybe someday he’ll put all that behind him and become a good QB, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that, and the Bears gave up plenty to get Kyle Boller ver. 2.1. I was stunned at how good Cutler became in a very short time in Denver. Now that I’ve seen him outside Denver, I realize it really was his receivers. Guy can throw the ball a mile and he’s got excellent mobility, but again I don’t think he’s accurate, regardless of what **Omni** says, and his body language and attitude are horrible. He seemed to be screaming at his receivers or his linemen or his running backs after every third down incompletion last night, and he had a look on his face that put me in mind of nothing so much as a spoiled kid who got a Maserati instead of a Ferrari for his 16th birthday. > [@Omniscient](#): > > Cedric Benson was all of those things before he had a line in front of him. Shawn Alexander was all of those things. Larry Johnson was all of those things in his prime. There have been a lot of guys that have been successful in that mold. Tedious workhorses can be valuable players when used properly with support. Shaun Alexander broke tons of tackles and averaged over 4 yards per carry in every season until he got hurt in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/643 "2009-11-24T00:32:24Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Cedric Benson was all of those things before he had a line in front of him. Shawn Alexander was all of those things. Larry Johnson was all of those things in his prime. There have been a lot of guys that have been successful in that mold. Tedious workhorses can be valuable players when used properly with support. Benson can run you over and break tackles. Shaun Alexander was explosive with a great second gear and some moves. Larry Johnson was the same way (he isn’t any more). I see none of those in Forte. He’s much more a plodder. > [@Omni](#): > > Please name me 20+ backs who you’d rather have as your starting RB. Forte is an excellent pass catcher, route runner and blocker. He hardly ever fumbles and is extremely durable. These are assets which aren’t terribly common. I wish he was more dynamic or more bruising, of course, but not everyone is Adrian Peterson. Chris Johnson Steven Jackson Adrian Peterson DeAngelo Williams Maurice Jones-Drew Michael Turner Ryan Grant Ray Rice Rashard Mendenhall Ronnie Brown Brandon Jacob Pierre Thomas Marion Barber Kevin Smith Joseph Addai Jonathan Stewart Knowshon Moreno Beanie Wells Hell, I’d even take both ex-Bears Thomas Jones and Cedric Benson before Forte. I’d even rather have part timers like Ahmad Bradshaw, Fred Jackson, Reggie Bush, Laurence Maroney, LeSean McCoy, Michael Bush, Darren McFadden, Felix Jones, Tashard Choice, and Jerome Harrison. ALL of these backs have higher ypc, and some even worse O Lines. > [@Omni](#): > > I agree the clock is ticking. I don’t mind the Bears waiting for him. > [@Omni](#): > > I never said he was a top 10 QB. I said I’d rather have him than about 8 other guys, give or take, meaning that I’d rather have him on this Bears team right now. Guys like Favre, Warner, Hasselbeck and McNabb are at the end of their careers and would be gone before the Bears are over the hump. There are a few older guys around that I’d take who still have time left and a few younger guys who seem to be maturing faster than Cutler. There aren’t many guys out there you can build around with similar upside. If you have decided to go into waiting mode, fine by me. I just don’t see him developing like I do with some of the younger QB’s, I see him actually regressing. > [@Omni](#): > > I’d rather have a guy who could mature and could get his head right than a guy who will always have a crappy arm, lead feet and be injured half the time. You want to write him off, but it’s just WAY too early for that. I’m not completely writing him off, but the fact remains, he’s a losing quarterback. Denver has a better winning percentage without him. Bears have a worse one with him. He MIGHT be a good to great QB someday, but the price to get him was waaaay to high for the might. > [@Omni](#): > > Hester is making a ton of money, too damn much, but I promise you 20 other teams would be willing to pay it to him given the chance right now. That’s what I’m saying. No one would have paid Dante Hall that kind of money. Nobody SHOULD pay that kind of money for a return specialist. Hester is an electric returner, but he’s nothing more than a speed receiver with poor hands. > [@Omni](#): > > He’s already 5 times the WR Hall ever was. You seem to be under the impression I thought Hester was the next Randy Moss. I’ve always been very clear on what Hester is capable of and I don’t disagree with you and he’s being used all wrong in this system. It’s not just the system. He’s nothing more than a slot receiver, yet he’s paid like a #1. And it’s not just the money, it’s that the experiment with him at WR has hurt the Bears. They haven’t drafted or developed any top flight WR’s in the last 3 years. Berrian, Gage, Wade, Mark Bradley, are all gone, not given much of a chance, and now the Bears have one of the worst WR crew in the league. Anthony Gonzalez, Sidney Rice, Steve Smith, Michael Sims Walker, and others were skipped because the Bears thought they had their premier WR. > [@Omni](#): > > I think you have a very misguided opinion of what a average WR is. There are some really good ones but there’s also a ton of really crappy ones. Hester is a long ways from Moss, Johnson 1 & 2, Colston, Jackson and several other guys. But he’s still above average. Have you seen the guys that Oakland, Cleveland, St Louis, Tampa Bay, Tennessee, Washington and Miami are trotting out there? Additionally, there are only maybe 5 teams out there where Hester wouldn’t be an upgrade over their #2 WR. He is overpaid and the Bears need another guy to compliment him and they need to use him better but you’re nuts to think he’s below replacement level. He’s like Forte. He gets production because there are no better options on the team. He’d probably be a fine #2/#3 WR, someone like Devery Henderson, Pierre Garcon, Mike Wallace, who’ll run the go route to open up stuff for underneath routes. > [@Omni](#): > > Rinse, lather and repeat regarding Forte and point 3. He’s not elite but most teams in the league would love to have the guy ahead of the guys they are stuck with now. Hell, you could make a case that the Chargers, Saints, Colts and Pats would all be better with him right now. You constantly confuse “not elite” with “sucks” and “below average”. It’s not confusion, he doesn’t flat out “suck” like old Edgerrin James, but he’s nothing better than someone like Jamal Lewis. And I’d take someone explosive like Sproles or Bush, or even someone with some moves like Addai or Maroney over him anyway. > [@Omni](#): > > As for Cutler’s worth, time will tell. It is and was a huge gamble. 10 games into it is too early to judge, especially considering all the other huge issues on this team. Which is why I asked how long and what has to happen before you make that call? So far, their play seems to be much more in line with my views than yours. > [@Omni](#): > > I don’t think I said he was miles ahead of Grant and Smith. IIRC the conversation was that it was something like: > > Peterson \>\>\> Forte \> Grant = Smith. Here it is: “As far ahead as AP is of Forte, Forte is ahead of Kevin Smith. Grant trails Smith slightly. There are 3 clear tiers. and the gaps are pretty big.” Can we agree that this has been shown to be somewhat lacking in supporting evidence? > [@Omni](#): > > And I’d certainly promote Grant based on the way things have played out. Forte’s playing much slower and worse than last year when running between the tackles. I only saw maybe 4 games of Forte last year and a couple this year, and I’m seeing the same guy. There was no injury or anything that slowed him down, he’s always been that slow. > [@Omni](#): > > His O-line is much worse and Cutler is taking away from his effectiveness in the passing game. But I’m not really to pull up shop and dump the guy yet. I will argue that there are at least 17 teams out there that would probably trade their #1 RB for Forte straight up if given the offer, which is the point I was making. Good luck with that trade. I can’t imagine it, but if you can fleece another team like that, best of luck to you. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/644 "2009-11-24T03:59:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in Denver since none of their running backs could catch passes. However, now that he’s got a back who we already know is an excellent pass-catcher, I’ve got to believe he just doesn’t have enough touch. There’s nothing wrong with his touch. He never misses throws to RBs, Forte has had a few huge receiving days this year. It’s the looks that are this issue, it’s that at times Forte gets pretty much ignored and Cutler throws downfield into coverage as opposed to dumping it to Forte for modest gains. Also last year Forte would get lined up outside as a WR/slot and run routes downfield and that’s been eliminated from the play book this year. There’s no reason to imply that Cutler can’t make those throws, it’s that the game plan doesn’t call for it or he doesn’t get through the progression that far. Not sure which. > [@](#): > > I was stunned at how good Cutler became in a very short time in Denver. Now that I’ve seen him outside Denver, I realize it really was his receivers. Let’s not over do it. Cutler has 4 games this year with a rating over 98 and his average is just killed by a rating that’s below 45 in 2. Cutler hasn’t been great but it’s absurd to say he’s purely the product of his WRs. > [@](#): > > Shaun Alexander broke tons of tackles and averaged over 4 yards per carry in every season until he got hurt in 2006. Better hope **Ellis Dee** doesn’t see this. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/645 "2009-11-24T04:12:52Z")
Why didn’t Mike Ditka just draft Ricky Williams when he was coaching the Bears? He’s way better than Forte. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/646 "2009-11-24T04:31:29Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m not completely writing him off, but the fact remains, he’s a losing quarterback. Denver has a better winning percentage without him. Bears have a worse one with him. He MIGHT be a good to great QB someday, but the price to get him was waaaay to high for the might. Denver’s not going to finish with a better winning percentage. What do you mean might? They gave away draft picks for him, is there any greater “might” than a draft pick? Cutler is a hell of a lot more proven than a couple of 1st round picks would be. Treating draft picks like gold is no more of a gamble on potential than hoping a athletic QB matures, I’d say much less so. Cutler has already justified one of the 1st rounders we gave away. If he blossoms eventually he’ll more than offset the second one, that’s the gamble and I like his chances over some 15th pick. > [@](#): > > Nobody SHOULD pay that kind of money for a return specialist. Hester is an electric returner, but he’s nothing more than a speed receiver with poor hands. It’s not just the system. He’s nothing more than a slot receiver, yet he’s paid like a #1. And it’s not just the money, it’s that the experiment with him at WR has hurt the Bears. They haven’t drafted or developed any top flight WR’s in the last 3 years. Berrian, Gage, Wade, Mark Bradley, are all gone, not given much of a chance, and now the Bears have one of the worst WR crew in the league. Anthony Gonzalez, Sidney Rice, Steve Smith, Michael Sims Walker, and others were skipped because the Bears thought they had their premier WR. > > He’s like Forte. He gets production because there are no better options on the team. He’d probably be a fine #2/#3 WR, someone like Devery Henderson, Pierre Garcon, Mike Wallace, who’ll run the go route to open up stuff for underneath routes. Do you see the contradiction here or are you just trying to be belligerent? How can Hester be nothing more than a return specialist yet still be a fine #2 or #3 WR? I won’t argue that the Bears haven’t fucked things up. I’ve gone on and on about how they’ve fucked up. It’s not Hester’s fault though, he’s being asked to do too much. Also you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about if your criticizing his hands. Hester’s hands are excellent at this point. He has just 2 drops in 82 targets and a completion rate of 63.4% which is pretty much elite. Face it, you don’t watch nearly enough Bears games to be making sweeping judgments. > [@](#): > > It’s not confusion, he doesn’t flat out “suck” like old Edgerrin James, but he’s nothing better than someone like Jamal Lewis. And I’d take someone explosive like Sproles or Bush, or even someone with some moves like Addai or Maroney over him anyway. I wager you’d be in the vast minority here. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/647 "2009-11-24T04:40:39Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Cutler hasn’t been great but it’s absurd to say he’s purely the product of his WRs. You’re right…he also sucks! **wokka wokka wokka** I’m still reveling in the Bengals win over the Raiders yesterday. You see, the rest of the AFCN lost, so the Bengals… …oh yeah. Shit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/648 "2009-11-24T05:16:38Z")
Jamal Lewis has a 2000 yard season under his belt and a league-record rushing day. It’ll be a while before Forte is in the same discussion as Lewis in his prime. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/649 "2009-11-24T13:15:46Z")
**Omni** , It’s just like last time, or every time we do this about those three. We’ll wait and see who is right. But so far, the vast majority of evidence: from Forte’s pitiful stats, to Cutler’s leading in picks, to Hester’s overpaying, to the lack of draft picks for the Bears, to the Broncos better record and the Bears worse one, all seem to come down on my side. You can certainly hope things turn around though. Good Luck! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/650 "2009-11-24T15:25:11Z")
Yes, but at least Hester has a nice toned butt. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/651 "2009-11-24T16:57:06Z")
Scheduling update: The Vikings-Cardinals game on Dec. 6 has been [flexed to the sunday night slot](http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/72626767.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DUdcOy_nc:DKUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/652 "2009-11-24T17:49:29Z")
Too damn much purple on TV these days. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/653 "2009-11-24T17:58:20Z")
Get used to it. The Vikings are going to be on prime time three out of the last five weeks. And yes, there will be Favre-blowing from the announcers. You can rest assured of that. Number 4 will have the cleanest ballsack in the league after that little run…and it’s only going to get amplified if goes deep in the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/654 "2009-11-24T18:43:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > **Omni** , It’s just like last time, or every time we do this about those three. We’ll wait and see who is right. > > But so far, the vast majority of evidence: from Forte’s pitiful stats, to Cutler’s leading in picks, to Hester’s overpaying, to the lack of draft picks for the Bears, to the Broncos better record and the Bears worse one, all seem to come down on my side. > > You can certainly hope things turn around though. Good Luck! Maybe we will, maybe we won’t. However I get the impression that unless the Bears win the division and Cutler, Hester and Forte all make the Pro Bowl you’ll be banging on this drum. You have unfair expectations and/or misconstrue my faith in their ability to help the team. To hear you tell it the Bears are the new Lions and the Bears issues are completely the fault of the big three. You might like this [ESPN Bears Blog post](http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bears/post/_/id/4663549/reasons-why-the-bears-are-mediocre) that details many of the missteps that got us where we are. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Yes, but at least Hester has a nice toned butt. > > 😉 That was pretty funny, the best part was that Collinsworth and Michaels bit their tongues and didn’t say a word, pretending that it didn’t happen. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Scheduling update: The Vikings-Cardinals game on Dec. 6 has been [flexed to the sunday night slot](http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/72626767.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DUdcOy_nc:DKUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU). Do you know which game was dropped? This should be a great one, hopefully this is the Favre stink bomb that so many people are waiting on and the Cards plant the Vikes on their asses. Hopefully a solid 3 INT game will curb some of the slurping from the SNF crew. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/655 "2009-11-24T18:45:57Z")
Yet don’t most of us expect him to throw directly into quadruple coverage in the playoffs and blow the whole thing? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/656 "2009-11-24T18:46:28Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Do you know which game was dropped? New England-Miami. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/657 "2009-11-24T18:47:52Z")
I sure do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/658 "2009-11-24T18:50:18Z")
I don’t think the meltdown is coming. He’s got 21 TDs against 3 INTs right now. He’s been playing with a fundamentally different mindset this year. His defense and his running game are taking the pressure off. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/659 "2009-11-24T18:52:06Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > That was pretty funny, the best part was that Collinsworth and Michaels bit their tongues and didn’t say a word, pretending that it didn’t happen. I was reminded of a Bears game from around 1980 or so. As Payton was being tackled, a defender stuck out a hand, grabbed a handful of waistband…and tore off the back of Walter’s pants. The tacklers started to get up…and then stopped. The equipment guys came running onto the field with a big towel, which Walter draped around his hips before getting up from the pile, and trotting off the field. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/660 "2009-11-24T19:01:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think the meltdown is coming. He’s got 21 TDs against 3 INTs right now. He’s been playing with a fundamentally different mindset this year. His defense and his running game are taking the pressure off. I’m not sure how fundamentally different he is. He’s got an excellent line and running game which essentially means he’s never flushed from the pocket or forced to throw under pressure, also he’s barely ever needed to play from behind in obvious pressure passing situations. When standing back there calm and clean he can be as good as anyone and he has been. I think it’ll take a team getting up early on them before we see if there’s a meltdown in the offing, and if the Cards offense gets going and Favre is facing a line with their ears pinned back we might get some classic Favre. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=34)