# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/701 "2009-11-30T03:08:47Z")
The Vikings look pretty formidable. I think the Bengals v Vikings game could be interesting, since both teams are league leaders in rushing the football, Favre likes to throw a lot, the Bengals secondary is opportunistic and both defenses can get after it. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/702 "2009-11-30T03:15:24Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Bears offense in the second half netted -3 yards and earned zero first downs. If only Lovie could bottle that halftime speech and uncork it again when the Vikes travel to Chicago in a few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/703 "2009-11-30T03:29:17Z")
I hope the Vikes have Winfield back finally for the Bengals game. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/704 "2009-11-30T03:39:09Z")
I thought he was supposed to play today. I don’t know what happened. I wouldn’t mind having him in Arizona next week either. We need to find a way to sneak some stickum onto AD’s hands, by the way. The fumbles are getting ridiculous. The kid in Tennessee is starting to making him look like a punk. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/705 "2009-11-30T03:43:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I thought he was supposed to play today. I don’t know what happened. I wouldn’t mind having him in Arizona next week either. > > We need to find a way to sneak some stickum onto AD’s hands, by the way. The fumbles are getting ridiculous. The kid in Tennessee is starting to making him look like a punk. Meh. Chris Johnson is no joke. He and AP are the two best backs in the NFL right now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/706 "2009-11-30T05:13:00Z")
Johnson is averaging 6.4 yards per carry. The single-season record for YPA by a running back is… 6.4 (Jim Brown, '63). Finishing second in rushing is not exactly being punked. You have to go all the way down to Felix Jones to find a guy with a higher per-carry average, and he’s only carried ~60 times. Now, if any combination of MJD, DeAngelo Williams or Steven Jackson beats him (they’re all within 119 yards of each other; Johnson is nearly 300 yards in front) it will have been a disappointing season. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/707 "2009-11-30T05:25:13Z")
Yeah, AD was the runaway (pun intended) top RB in the league going into the season, but Chris Johnson is now his equal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/708 "2009-11-30T05:41:38Z")
He has seven rushes of 40 yards or more. Only one guy (DeSean Jackson) has seven _receptions_ of 40+ yards. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/709 "2009-11-30T15:41:53Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Bears offense in the second half netted -3 yards and earned zero first downs. You may have heard me mention a time or two over the past few seasons that coaching is a serious issue for the Bears. Yeah. This might be collectively the stupidest team in the NFL by a wide margin. Not that it made a lick of difference, but did anyone else thing that the refs overturning that AD fumble was complete bullshit? There’s no possible way you could tell if that ball touched the line or not before it was recovered. I think the homefield advantage and Cutler-hate poisoned that call. The biggest upside to this continued embarrassment is that it exponentially increases the likelihood that the Bears will eat Lovie and Angelo’s contracts at the end of the year. Though to give credit where credit is due Taub’s Special Teams unit is still excellent and Marinelli’s D-Line has been getting steadily better as the season progresses, I’d hate to lose those guys but everyone else has to go. I can’t stomach any more of this Tampa 2 shit. It’s like we’re playing the fucking prevent defense for 4 quarters. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/710 "2009-11-30T15:45:01Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You may have heard me mention a time or two over the past few seasons that coaching is a serious issue for the Bears. Yeah. This might be collectively the stupidest team in the NFL by a wide margin. > > Not that it made a lick of difference, but did anyone else thing that the refs overturning that AD fumble was complete bullshit? There’s no possible way you could tell if that ball touched the line or not before it was recovered. I think the homefield advantage and Cutler-hate poisoned that call. > > The biggest upside to this continued embarrassment is that it exponentially increases the likelihood that the Bears will eat Lovie and Angelo’s contracts at the end of the year. Though to give credit where credit is due Taub’s Special Teams unit is still excellent and Marinelli’s D-Line has been getting steadily better as the season progresses, I’d hate to lose those guys but everyone else has to go. I can’t stomach any more of this Tampa 2 shit. It’s like we’re playing the fucking prevent defense for 4 quarters. Amen. This Tampa 2 stuff is really crappy, unless you have some amazing playmakers in your defense, and really, even when you do. However, I don’t get wanting to retain Marinelli if you hate the Tampa 2. That’s all he knows. I think Marinelli is a good Defensive Coordinator, if you’re using a system he likes. His players don’t see to give up on him. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/711 "2009-11-30T15:45:31Z")
The call wasn’t that the ball touched the line. It was whether Hunter Hillenmeyer touched the ball while he was out of bounds, which means the ball is out of bounds - and he clearly did. A player does not have to recover a fumble to take it out of bounds - simply making contact with the ball while his body was out of bounds was enough. Silly rule, but it _is_ the rule. ETA: The Tampa 2 worked rather well yesterday against the Falcons. Jim Bates was fired this week; Raheem Morris took over the defense, and reinstalled the old scheme, and the Buccaneers had by far their best defensive performance of the season. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/712 "2009-11-30T15:56:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You may have heard me mention a time or two over the past few seasons that coaching is a serious issue for the Bears. Yeah. This might be collectively the stupidest team in the NFL by a wide margin. > > Not that it made a lick of difference, but did anyone else thing that the refs overturning that AD fumble was complete bullshit? There’s no possible way you could tell if that ball touched the line or not before it was recovered. I think the homefield advantage and Cutler-hate poisoned that call. What **RNATB** said. The call was the the ball was touched by a player with his feet out of bounds. That makes the ball out out of bounds, just like ctaching it with a foot out of bounds makes the ball out of bounds. The actual position of the ball itself didn’t matter. It was a good call, since Hillenmeyer clearly touched the ball, and his feet were visibly OOB on the replay. I honestly don’t think it really made much difference, though. The Bears’ offense was throttled all day. They probably just would have gone three and out again. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/713 "2009-11-30T16:27:24Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > Amen. This Tampa 2 stuff is really crappy, unless you have some amazing playmakers in your defense, and really, even when you do. However, I don’t get wanting to retain Marinelli if you hate the Tampa 2. That’s all he knows. > > I think Marinelli is a good Defensive Coordinator, if you’re using a system he likes. His players don’t see to give up on him. Marinelli is not the DC he’s our D-Line coach. Presumably pass rushing and run stuffing skills are pretty universal regardless of scheme. His biggest contributions seem to be in raising the intensity level and urgency of the D-line and maybe in assigning roles and dictating substitutions. Long story short, with essentially the same talent as last season our pass rush and interior run defense has improved dramatically (though still not elite) over what it was last season. We’ve had to blitz somewhat less and the losses at the LB position have been somewhat masked by improved line play. The Tampa 2 was dominant when the Bears had Urlacher, Briggs, Tommie Harris and Mike Brown playing at elite levels, which made our ends and corners look equally stellar. Tampa was great when they had Sapp, Brooks, Lynch were looking like monsters in the middle and they elevated the guys on the edges. If you don’t have once in a generation talent at the key positions the Tampa 2 is nothing but a soft zone without a pass rush. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The call wasn’t that the ball touched the line. It was whether Hunter Hillenmeyer touched the ball while he was out of bounds, which means the ball is out of bounds - and he clearly did. > > A player does not have to recover a fumble to take it out of bounds - simply making contact with the ball while his body was out of bounds was enough. Silly rule, but it _is_ the rule. > > ETA: The Tampa 2 worked rather well yesterday against the Falcons. Jim Bates was fired this week; Raheem Morris took over the defense, and reinstalled the old scheme, and the Buccaneers had by far their best defensive performance of the season. Ah, the sound at the bar I ended up at wasn’t very loud and I missed this detail. I didn’t pick up on the Hillenmeyer issue, makes sense. Man, not only are the Bears poorly coached and sloppy, they are unlucky too. Don’t fall in love with the revived Tampa 2. The Falcons were really banged up, no Ryan or Turner for most of the game, and they had no tape on the new defense to prepare for. After teams know what to expect, and trust me that offenses know how to attack a Tampa 2 these days, things will get ugly with the sub-par talent the Bucs have. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/714 "2009-11-30T16:34:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > , and the Buccaneers had by far their best defensive performance of the season. This was against a Falcons team missing Matt Ryan and Michael Turner for most of the game, and the defense still gave up the nookie on the Falcons’ last drive. I think Sam Baker and Harvey Dahl were out much of the game as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/715 "2009-11-30T16:38:43Z")
It looks like the Packers are the third best team in the NFC, maybe fourth if Warner is playing for the Cards. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/716 "2009-11-30T16:52:06Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > It looks like the Packers are the third best team in the NFC, maybe fourth if Warner is playing for the Cards. I’m not sure how much that says about my beloved Packers, so much as it says something about the shallow pool that is the 2009 NFC. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/717 "2009-11-30T16:53:51Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’m not sure how much that says about my beloved Packers, so much as it says something about the shallow pool that is the 2009 NFC. 😛 Too true. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/718 "2009-11-30T16:55:55Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > This was against a Falcons team missing Matt Ryan and Michael Turner for most of the game, and the defense still gave up the nookie on the Falcons’ last drive. I think Sam Baker and Harvey Dahl were out much of the game as well. Matt Ryan was out of the game because he got hit six times on his eight dropbacks. Moreover, Chris Redman was actually more effective than Ryan has been recently. Turner wasn’t out most of the game, just for the fourth quarter. He averaged well under 3 yards per carry when he was in, so it’s not like his absence was a big deal. The defense gave up the nookie because they were on the field for 76 plays, because the offense kept going three and out. Under those circumstances, any defense in the league would have been thrilled to give up just 20 points. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/719 "2009-11-30T17:24:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The defense gave up the nookie because they were on the field for 76 plays, because the offense kept going three and out. Under those circumstances, any defense in the league would have been thrilled to give up just 20 points. Atlanta’s banged up offense was on the field for 76 plays, too, right? No defense I’ve ever heard of would ever be thrilled to give up a game winning TD drive, let alone to an offense missing 4 of its starters. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/720 "2009-11-30T17:40:19Z")
It doesn’t matter how many plays an offense is on the field for. They don’t tire the same way as a defense- blocking is much less physically demanding than trying to shed blocks and chase down ball carriers. That’s common knowledge. Moreover, an offense can substitute freely, while defensive substitutions have to follow what the offense is doing. ETA: The Buccaneers defense held the Falcons to 3.9 yards per play, on the road. If you don’t think that’s impressive, you don’t understand football. Sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=37)