# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/941 "2009-12-29T19:18:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There were some very bad calls in the game, including a first down given to the Bears that was a full yard short, and a non-call on a late hit out of bounds on AP, but it wasn’t the reason the Vikings lost. It was their special teams that killed them. Favre was brilliant, but every time he did something, the special teams would do something to take another step back. The kick coverage was pathetic, obviously, but that botched PAT ended up being the difference in the game. If not for that, there would have been no overtime. Of course, using that logic I could conclude that the dropped interception was the differennce in the game. If not for that, there would have been no overtime. I was still basically happy with what I saw from the Vikings offense overall. They woke up in the second half and showed the kind of life we saw for most of the season. In the long run, there’s not much to worry about. Favre silenced everybody who said he can’t play in December. [/QUOTE] That’s you rperogative to think there is not much to worry about in the long run. But your defense is not nearly the defense it was at the beginning of the season. Your secondary is suspect and the injury to Henderson is hurting your team. I never thought Favre would have a December meltdown, but we all know he is capable of that one bad decision. With the playoffs comming up and the Vikings losing three of their last four (and who knows, they could lose on Sunday,although I would not bet any amount of money on the Giants right now) I am surprised that you think there is not much to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/942 "2009-12-29T19:52:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There were some very bad calls in the game. They also missed a pretty blatant face mask penalty on his fumble. Watch the slow motion replay: [NFL Football Highlights, Clips & Analysis | NFL.com](http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815587e4/NFLTA-Vikings-vs-Bears-highlights) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/943 "2009-12-29T20:15:13Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > They also missed a pretty blatant face mask penalty on his fumble. Watch the slow motion replay: [NFL Football Highlights, Clips & Analysis | NFL.com](http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815587e4/NFLTA-Vikings-vs-Bears-highlights) You are drunk. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There were some very bad calls in the game, including a first down given to the Bears that was a full yard short, and a non-call on a late hit out of bounds on AP, but it wasn’t the reason the Vikings lost. It was their special teams that killed them. Favre was brilliant, but every time he did something, the special teams would do something to take another step back. The kick coverage was pathetic, obviously, but that botched PAT ended up being the difference in the game. If not for that, there would have been no overtime. If you thought that hit on the sideline was late and/or out of bounds your credibility on all subjects is forfeit. Peterson was _clearly_ in bounds and still working upfield. Gruden was a moron for implying it was late and the rest of the booth correctly chastised him for the idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/944 "2009-12-29T20:24:45Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You are drunk. You seriously don’t see #35 grab AP’s face mask, pulling his head down and around from 6:29 to 6:31 of the linked video? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/945 "2009-12-29T20:42:25Z")
There was also a lot of miscellaneous non-calls on holding, and one extremely blatant pass interference that wasn’t called, and yes there was a facemask on AP on that fumble. It was still the special teams that sunk the Vikings, though. Still, the Vikings are going to be hosting a playoff game and the Bears are going to to be watching at home, so in the long run, it’s no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/946 "2009-12-29T20:51:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was still the special teams that sunk the Vikings, though. You know special teams are bad when a 16 yard punt hardly merits a mention. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/947 "2009-12-29T20:53:47Z")
I watched it live and again on replay in the link you posted. There is no facemask. Bowman’s hand is on the front of Peterson’s shoulder pads and his wrist/forearm is across his face. There’s no grasping of the facemask and and contact with it would not come anywhere close to warranting a major facemask penalty. You can see his [hand](http://cid-6f56a1671655b5af.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Fumble/fumble1.jpg) is on his [jersey](http://cid-6f56a1671655b5af.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Fumble/Capture2.jpg). Not his facemask. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/948 "2009-12-29T20:55:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There was also a lot of miscellaneous non-calls on holding, and one extremely blatant pass interference that wasn’t called, and yes there was a facemask on AP on that fumble. Apparently both Steelers fans _and_ Vikings fans have no idea what holding actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/949 "2009-12-29T21:04:12Z")
When an O-lineman grabs a linebacker’s arm and throws him down to the ground Steven Seagal style, that looks like holding to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/950 "2009-12-29T21:19:34Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You can see his [hand](http://cid-6f56a1671655b5af.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Fumble/fumble1.jpg) is on his [jersey](http://cid-6f56a1671655b5af.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Fumble/Capture2.jpg). Not his facemask. Look carefully at the first shot. His glove has a white stripe on the thumb \*\*and \*\*on the fore finger. The palm of his hand is on AP’s face mask. You are correct, he hasn’t grabbed the face mask at this point. Now, look at the second shot. Where did the white strip on his fore finger go? One can only assume it must be obscured in the shot. Like it was curled up underneath something. And wonder of wonders, AP’s head has started to turn as if it was being tugged in the direction of the (non)offending hand. Oh, well. I suppose those missing fingers will show up somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/951 "2009-12-29T21:46:39Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Look carefully at the first shot. His glove has a white stripe on the thumb \*\*and \*\*on the fore finger. The palm of his hand is on AP’s face mask. You are correct, he hasn’t grabbed the face mask at this point. > > Now, look at the second shot. Where did the white strip on his fore finger go? One can only assume it must be obscured in the shot. Like it was curled up underneath something. And wonder of wonders, AP’s head has started to turn as if it was being tugged in the direction of the (non)offending hand. > > Oh, well. I suppose those missing fingers will show up somewhere… All of his fingers outside of the facemask, as you can see in this [third capture](http://cid-6f56a1671655b5af.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Fumble/fumble3.jpg). If anything, the wristband of his glove _might_ have snagged the edge of the mask but that’s impossible to see. Regardless, it’s moot because a facemask is no longer a black and white thing, the new rule states that a player must grab, hold and twist the players head to warrant a flag. The incidental facemask no longer exists. Considering the uncertainty and that the announcers didn’t seem to notice any issue through all the reviews contributes to the fact that it’s simply a judgment call and there was nothing here to warrant a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/952 "2009-12-29T21:49:15Z")
Give it up, you will never convince these guys that the refs don’t systematically have an anti-Vikings bias. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/953 "2009-12-29T22:02:04Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Give it up, you will never convince these guys that the refs don’t systematically have an anti-Vikings bias. I don’t believe that at all. Missed and incorrect calls effect every team and universally suck ass. The ones that effect the Vikings just suck more ass. That’s all we’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/954 "2009-12-29T22:18:40Z")
Nothing “effects” the Vikings. Some things may “affect” them. If the Vikings have calls that are not made which if made would help them, and calls made against them which should not have been called against them, so do their opponents. The Bears would have equal unhappiness. The net effect is a wash over the course of 60 min. of play. Whining about officiating is bad sportsmanship of the not-quite-highest degree. Real men suck it up after a loss and admit to failure. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/955 "2009-12-29T22:25:15Z")
I don’t think the calls in his case were a result of bias, just general sloppiness from officials who were cold, and weren’t that interested in paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/956 "2009-12-29T22:28:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think the calls in his case were a result of bias, just general sloppiness from officials who were cold, and weren’t that interested in paying attention. Yet they all went against the Vikings. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/957 "2009-12-29T22:32:18Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Nothing “effects” the Vikings. Some things may “affect” them. You are correct. The blown calls helped to effect the loss. How’s that? > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > If the Vikings have calls that are not made which if made would help them, and calls made against them which should not have been called against them, so do their opponents. The Bears would have equal unhappiness. The net effect is a wash over the course of 60 min. of play. Congrats - you just parroted what I said above using more words. I didn’t think I needed to point out the relativism in my statement of opinion. > [@](#): > > Whining about officiating is bad sportsmanship of the not-quite-highest degree. Real men suck it up after a loss and admit to failure. 😉 Well, I don’t eat quiche so I’m not sure where that puts me. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/958 "2009-12-29T22:52:57Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > You are correct. The blown calls helped to effect the loss. How’s that? He was correcting your grammar. “Affect” is the verb, “effect” is the noun. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/959 "2009-12-29T23:04:26Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Nothing “effects” the Vikings. Some things may “affect” them. > > If the Vikings have calls that are not made which if made would help them, and calls made against them which should not have been called against them, so do their opponents. The Bears would have equal unhappiness. The net effect is a wash over the course of 60 min. of play. > > Whining about officiating is bad sportsmanship of the not-quite-highest degree. Real men suck it up after a loss and admit to failure. 😉 You misunderstand the rules of random distribution over a small sample. Look at this way. Do you think if every time you draw four cards from a deck, two will be red and two will be black? Do you furthermore suppose that two will be over seven and two will be below seven, every single time? Obviously not. The very fact that it’s random means it is not likely to be be well distributed. So it goes with officiating errors, even if they were random. Not that human beings are perfect random number generators, anyway. The fact is that sloppy, amateur (literally, unpaid) referring in football really does have a huge impact on games. Yes, yes, I know the ritualistic shaming of anyone who brings up sloppy reffing after a loss, but it doesn’t address the issue or refute the argument. It’s just an ad hominem attack. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/960 "2009-12-29T23:08:45Z")
I just know the facts of the case, which I observed: a receiver pushed to the turf here, a receiver hit out of bounds there, a defender knocking down a QB without a ball here, and two handfulls of facemask, not one of which was called a penalty. Now, overall the refs didn’t throw a lot of flags, but they could have in all of those cases and definitely should have in a couple where even the announcers commented on it. That’s just known facts. I don’t have any conclusion from it, I just observed it. That’s all. I’ve seen my own teams get bad calls and I’ll own up to it when the do. It doesn’t change the scoreboard. I don’t feel compromised by doing it. I guess I just never bought the premise that it’s somehow unprincipled to critique the officiating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=49)