# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1041 "2010-01-11T14:01:54Z")
It was clearly a facemask in that the hand grabbed the facemask and turned his head. Based on how facemask has been called this season, it was clearly and obviously a 15 yard facemask penalty. Even if you quibble with that, it is undeniable that his head was touched. Based on how calls were made all season long, it was clearly and obviously a QB head-touching, which is an automatic 15 yard penalty. Remember Ray Lewis complaining about that call against him “hitting” Tom Brady during the regular season? All you need is contact to the head – no matter how light – to draw a flag for roughing the passer. That was clearly that. Hell, it even met the standard for illegal hands to the face for linemen, which again would be a first down. Other than having Rodgers in both the fantasy league and the playoff challenge I didn’t care a whit who won that game. Based on rules that I hate and enforcement of those rules that I hate even more, the Packers were robbed. On a personal note, I’m thrilled that the game was won by defense and even more thrilled that it’s another reason to tell whiners who bitch about the overtime format to go blow it out their ass. Cardinals never got to touch the ball in overtime, so I guess that game was unfair to the Cardinals, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1042 "2010-01-11T14:12:46Z")
I think you’ll find that overtime games being won on defensive scores are the exception, rather than the rule. I’ve never had a problem with the NFL overtime system except that it makes a field goal just as valuable as a touchdown, which completely changes teams’ offensive philosophy. If they made it “first to four points” I’d think it was just about perfect, regardless of whether both teams got possessions. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1043 "2010-01-11T14:15:24Z")
Exception, yes, but the way people describe it nothing matters except the coin toss. I wouldn’t hate a first-to-four rule, though I much prefer sudden death. If I were commissioner the only thing I’d change would be to determine who gets first overtime possession before the game starts. That way teams would be able to gameplan accordingly during regulation. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1044 "2010-01-11T14:21:42Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I wouldn’t hate a first-to-four rule Actually, scratch that. I just remembered why I don’t like the “first to #” format. A safety should absolutely win in overtime no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1045 "2010-01-11T14:29:10Z")
The play is here: > **[NFL.com | Official Site of the National Football League](https://www.nfl.com/videos/)** > > The official source for NFL news, video highlights, fantasy football, game-day coverage, schedules, stats, scores and more. It looks like the hand is on the shoulder. I sure don’t see the head getting jerked around. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1046 "2010-01-11T14:32:27Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Exception, yes, but the way people describe it nothing matters except the coin toss. > > I wouldn’t hate a first-to-four rule, though I much prefer sudden death. If I were commissioner the only thing I’d change would be to determine who gets first overtime possession before the game starts. That way teams would be able to gameplan accordingly during regulation. That’s a good idea. I would also rather get rid of the coin toss entirely, and give the road team the first possession, or something. > [@cricetus](#): > > The play is here: > > [NFL Football Highlights, Clips & Analysis | NFL.com](http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a5501/Wild-Card-Can-t-Miss-Play-Cards-pull-it-out) > > It looks like the hand is on the shoulder. I sure don’t see the head getting jerked around. I can’t see it either, although I only watched the first view 'cause I’m at work. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1047 "2010-01-11T14:37:05Z")
I can’t get that video to load. Here is it in glorious slow-mo: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foVp8i86Z_Y) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1048 "2010-01-11T14:41:39Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I can’t get that video to load. Here is it in glorious slow-mo: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foVp8i86Z\_Y#t=1m30s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foVp8i86Z_Y#t=1m30s) It always surprises me how people can see the same thing so differently. It seems pretty clear that he not only gives Rodgers a shot to the head, but also grabs a hold of the facemask, and even tugs it down and to the right. Down and to the right. Down… and to the right. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1049 "2010-01-11T14:42:52Z")
NOte that I’m not saying that is an example of what _should_ be called a penalty. I hate the overprotection of the QB. I’m saying that’s an example of what _is_ called a penalty, evey single time. Until yesterday, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1050 "2010-01-11T14:43:25Z")
It was definitely a facemask. Does it matter that it occured after the turnover? His hand knocks the ball out right before grabbing the mask. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1051 "2010-01-11T14:43:32Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > NOte that I’m not saying that is an example of what _should_ be called a penalty. I hate the overprotection of the QB. I’m saying that’s an example of what _is_ called a penalty, evey single time. Until yesterday, that is. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1052 "2010-01-11T14:48:34Z")
I agree that it’s a case where Packers often get a completely bogus game-changing penalty. I can see where their fans might now feel like it’s an entitlement. But you are wrong that it is called “every time.” It wasn’t called when the Bears did it to Peterson, for example, and that was an actual hand-on-the-facemask, which this isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1053 "2010-01-11T14:50:32Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > It was definitely a facemask. Does it matter that it occured after the turnover? His hand knocks the ball out right before grabbing the mask. This is going to be just like that phantom “puff of dust” in the White Sox game, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1054 "2010-01-11T14:52:01Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > This is going to be just like that phantom “puff of dust” in the White Sox game, isn’t it? You’re going to have to clue me in. I don’t watch much baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1055 "2010-01-11T14:52:45Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I agree that it’s a case where Packers often get a completely bogus game-changing penalty. I can see where their fans might now feel like it’s an entitlement. But you are wrong that it is called “every time.” It wasn’t called when the Bears did it to Peterson, for example, and that was an actual hand-on-the-facemask, which this isn’t. Peterson isn’t a quarterback. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1056 "2010-01-11T14:56:49Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > It was definitely a facemask. Does it matter that it occured after the turnover? His hand knocks the ball out right before grabbing the mask. That’s my question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1057 "2010-01-11T15:12:21Z")
It wasn’t a facemask, so it doesn’t matter. Man, people give me crap for bitching about the officials, but Packer fans are the champions of it. The answer is that if a facemask were to occur after a turnover, it would be a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul, and the recovering team would keep the ball. It would be treated just like any penalty committed during an interception or fumble return. It wasn’t a facemask, though. It was a classic example of what used to be a 5 yard incidental penalty, but which no longer exists. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Peterson isn’t a quarterback. So what? Not that it matters, but after a QB drops the ball, he stops being a QB and becomes a defender. The roughing protections no longer exist after a turnover. You’re allowed to treat them like any other player on the field. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1058 "2010-01-11T15:19:09Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > It wasn’t called when the Bears did it to Peterson, for example, and that was an actual hand-on-the-facemask, which this isn’t. Like I said, I’m surprised that someone could, with a straight face, say that Adams didn’t put his hand on Rodgers’ facemask. It’s right there in the videos, clear as day. Whether it deserves a facemask penalty or not is another thing all together, but to say it wasn’t “actual hand on facemask” is just laughable. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1059 "2010-01-11T15:25:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The answer is that if a facemask were to occur after a turnover, it would be a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul, and the recovering team would keep the ball. Thanks. From the YouTube video above, I (Vikings fan) saw a pretty decent facemask after the ball was knocked loose by Adams. Seems to me the Cardinals should have the ball around the GB 32 or so. Given that, I put the Cards’ chance of scoring at 92%. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1060 "2010-01-11T15:25:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not that it matters, but after a QB drops the ball, he stops being a QB and becomes a defender. The roughing protections no longer exist after a turnover. You’re allowed to treat them like any other player on the field. I flat out don’t believe you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=54)