# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1081 "2010-01-11T15:52:54Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Now, hang on a second. > > I think that the penalty should not have been called, because in general I’m in favor of letting the players determine the outcome of the game and I don’t think that what happened affected the way the play turned out. The Cardinals won, they deserved to win, the end. > > But. > > Please view this youtube clip. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZCbmc0IIM4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZCbmc0IIM4) > > Pause the clip at 0:38. > > Where is Mike Adams’ right hand, if not gripping the front of Aaron Rodgers’ facemask? You’re right; that’s a different angle and looks completely different. Oh well. Having seen the Packers be the beneficiaries of so many horrible non-calls through the year, I can only say: How do you like it? Doesn’t it suck? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1082 "2010-01-11T15:54:22Z")
Speaking as a Packer fan here: Yes, I think Rodgers got facemasked on that play. How hard Adams pulled on the facemask, it’s hard to say. But, given that the referee’s eyes were very likely on the loose ball at that point, I can understand why he missed it. (FWIW, that’s pretty much Peter King’s view of it, as well: [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter\_king/01/10/mmqb/index.html?eref=sihp](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/10/mmqb/index.html?eref=sihp)) But, I don’t think that the “missed call” is what doomed the Packers. Honestly, it was turning the ball over twice on their first three offensive plays…and being completely unable to stop Warner. We had our chances. Fortune smiled when Rackers yanked that kick to the left. But, Rodgers couldn’t connect with Jennings on the first play of overtime. A great comeback, and a heartbreaking loss. But, I think it’s incredibly unfair to call Rodgers a “choker” over it. He had a very good game…but, given everything else that went on during it, he needed to be _perfect_ in order to win. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1083 "2010-01-11T15:55:26Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > You’re right; that’s a different angle and looks completely different. > > Oh well. Having seen the Packers be the beneficiaries of so many horrible non-calls through the year, I can only say: How do you like it? Doesn’t it suck? Why are you under the impression that anyone who isn’t anti-Packers is a Packers’ fan? Like **Ellis Dee** , I root for a team that laid down like pitiful dogs in the last two games of the season, emabrassing themselves and all their fans. And yes, it _sucks_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1084 "2010-01-11T15:56:42Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > It’s all irrelevent because the video shows there was no facemask. The defender’s hand was on Rodgers shoulder. You’re wrong…in the video StoryTeller posted, from 0:27 to 0:35 you can clearly see that Adams was latched onto his facemask. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1085 "2010-01-11T16:01:38Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > But, I don’t think that the “missed call” is what doomed the Packers. What’s funny is almost every Packer fan here has said the same thing. It’s the haters who have built this strawman that we’re blaming the loss on a non call rather than shoddy pass defense, two early turnovers, and an outstanding game by Warner. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1086 "2010-01-11T16:04:41Z")
I’ve constructed no such strawman. I didn’t say anyone was blaming the loss on the call, but it is kind of denial to say that it was both a facemask that should have negated the winning defensive TD _and_ that it didn’t change the game. I don’t really get this whole ethic that you can’t attribute wins and losses to bad calls. That’s like Sarah Palin claiming man can’t hurt the environment. Refs can and do change games all the time. Saying so is just looking at the facts. I don’t think it’s a testament to sportsmanship or manhood as long as you aren’t making stuff up or attributing a 20 point loss to one call. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1087 "2010-01-11T16:09:48Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > What’s funny is almost every Packer fan here has said the same thing. It’s the haters who have built this strawman that we’re blaming the loss on a non call rather than shoddy pass defense, two early turnovers, and an outstanding game by Warner. And your definition of “hater” is someone who doesn’t root for the Packers? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1088 "2010-01-11T16:10:49Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I’ve constructed no such strawman. I didn’t say anyone was blaming the loss on the call 'Twasn’t you. 'Twas Dio: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > …but it’s definitely true that Packer fans need to accept the loss and quit trying to blame the officials. If you listen to Packer fans, they’ve never lost a game fair and square. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1089 "2010-01-11T16:11:52Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > A facemask is a facemask. I think that what Ellis is talking about is Rule 12, Section 2, Article 13(3) which, according to Pro Football Talk, states that defenders may not “hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer in the head, neck, or face.” Disclaimer for the terminally stupid: I am not saying the non-call cost the Packers the game, or whining about it. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1090 "2010-01-11T16:16:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I think that what Ellis is talking about is Rule 12, Section 2, Article 13(3) which, according to Pro Football Talk, states that defenders may not “hit the passer, or use hands, arms, or other parts of the body to hit the passer in the head, neck, or face.” Yes, but, is the passer still the passer after the passer has fumbled the ball? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1091 "2010-01-11T16:16:46Z")
That rule is irrelevant to whether Adrian Peterson got facemasked. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1092 "2010-01-11T16:18:13Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > And your definition of “hater” is someone who doesn’t root for the Packers? No. My definition of hater is someone who roots against a team, enjoys watching them fail, and enjoys taunting fans. I’m certainly a hater of many teams and people. The Yankees. Al Davis. Notre Dame football. But it is one thing to be a hater. It’s another to make blatantly false assertions to support that hate. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1093 "2010-01-11T16:20:15Z")
I don’t care how good both these teams offenses were. Fact is both teams defenses were absolutely awful. On both sides of the ball they each gave up 45 points, in a freakin playoff game! And they want to try to ride that to the superbowl? Warner and Rodgers both had great games. The Packers AND the Cardinals defenses should be ashamed of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1094 "2010-01-11T16:21:56Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I’ve constructed no such strawman. I didn’t say anyone was blaming the loss on the call, but it is kind of denial to say that it was both a facemask that should have negated the winning defensive TD _and_ that it didn’t change the game. I don’t really get this whole ethic that you can’t attribute wins and losses to bad calls. That’s like Sarah Palin claiming man can’t hurt the environment. Refs can and do change games all the time. Saying so is just looking at the facts. I don’t think it’s a testament to sportsmanship or manhood as long as you aren’t making stuff up or attributing a 20 point loss to one call. I know you’re still butthurt about this from a couple weeks ago, but I think I know what the difference is. It is unmanly to complain about bad calls adversely affecting _your_ team. When it’s another team that you don’t care about, it’s perfectly fine. Instead of “they’re screwing over my guys!”, it’s more about screweing up the integrity of the league. I hate the rule about not being allowed to touch a QB above the neck or below the thigh. As a fan of defensive football I think they hurt the game in a real and meaningful way. However, they were extremely consistent on calling those rules all season, and to then not call that heavily-enforced rule on the game-deciding play of an overtime playoff game is simply uncool. I also hate the non-contact after five yards emphasis on the same grounds. For example, what the officials did to Revis on Saturday was a joke. The difference there was that the Jets were clearly good enough to overcome bad calls while the Packers were not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1095 "2010-01-11T16:22:47Z")
You can’t tell me that the perception that Packer fans are blaming the loss on a non-call on an incidental facemask is a dishonest one. I didn’t make up the carping. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1096 "2010-01-11T16:22:48Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > Yes, but, is the passer still the passer after the passer has fumbled the ball? Dunno. Adams’ hand hits the ball first, then contacts Rodger’s head. But I’ve seen the blow to the head called after the passer has thrown the ball downfield or away. I’m not sure if the passer stops being a passer for the purposes of the rule, once it leaves his hand or if it leaves his hand as a fumble. Maybe the NFL will clarify, because I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1097 "2010-01-11T16:22:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That rule is irrelevant to whether Adrian Peterson got facemasked. Sure, but running backs will never get the same sort of protection that quarterbacks do. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1098 "2010-01-11T16:25:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You can’t tell me that the perception that Packer fans are blaming the loss on a non-call on an incidental facemask is a dishonest one. I didn’t make up the carping. But none of them are in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1099 "2010-01-11T16:26:35Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I know you’re still butthurt about this from a couple weeks ago, but I think I know what the difference is. It is unmanly to complain about bad calls adversely affecting _your_ team. When it’s another team that you don’t care about, it’s perfectly fine. Instead of “they’re screwing over my guys!”, it’s more about screweing up the integrity of the league. That’s the illogical, ad hominem nonsense I don’t get. And leave my butt out of it. I don’t see why I get censured and you can prattle off with your junior high locker room rules of masculinity and pseudo-swears unchecked. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1100 "2010-01-11T16:29:05Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > But none of them are in this thread. I was the one who brought it up, and only as a question 'cause I missed the play. I’m neither a Packer fan nor blaming their loss on it. In a game where the defenses gave up 40+ points each, neither team can blame anything on a bad call, no matter how egregious - if you had forced a goddamn punt one time, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. That goes extra for the Packers, who got to play a Cardinals team that was missing one of the five best wide receivers in the league. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=56)