# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1181 "2010-01-13T16:34:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Translates to reality perfectly. Hester has two of four things that wideouts need, and those two of the four things that make good kick returners. **Jules** said “almost none of [wide receiving skills] translate to kick returning”. > > Hester’s problem is that he can’t do the other two things _at all_ - he’s got poor vertical leaping ability and poor route running skills. I’d add one additional, slightly important thing: good hands. 🙂 I’m not convinced that Hester is a natural pass-catcher, either. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1182 "2010-01-13T16:36:57Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > One factor you’ve ignored is intelligence. Fast dumbasses with great leaping abilities may not make for very good wide receivers. Indeed. 20 years ago or so, the Packers had a WR named Jeff Query. The guy was fast as hell, but the rap on him was that he just couldn’t learn the routes. Was an OK punt returner, but never really blossomed as a receiver. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1183 "2010-01-13T16:38:02Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’d add one additional, slightly important thing: good hands. 🙂 I’m not convinced that Hester is a natural pass-catcher, either. After watching 10 or so Vikings games this year, I’m convinced Harvin has good hands. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1184 "2010-01-13T16:52:21Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I’d add one additional, slightly important thing: good hands. 🙂 I’m not convinced that Hester is a natural pass-catcher, either. Nah, that’s not important to a wide receiver at all. Can’t believe I forgot that one. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1185 "2010-01-13T17:03:37Z")
Maybe he should go to work for Allstate. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1186 "2010-01-13T17:24:23Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Indeed. 20 years ago or so, the Packers had a WR named Jeff Query. The guy was fast as hell, but the rap on him was that he just couldn’t learn the routes. Was an OK punt returner, but never really blossomed as a receiver. That is not uncommon. The Lions have actually given up on teaching some players because they were unable to learn the routes and the technique. That is why some kick returners stay in that dangerous spot for years. If they can break away in returns ,you would think that shiftiness and speed would be useful in a wide receiver. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1187 "2010-01-13T17:34:08Z")
Here is my humble opinion. I am very confident I missed some. LET THE ARGUING…BEGIN!!! Here is a list of the truly elite receivers: Andre Johnson Larry Fitzgerald Wes Welker Calvin Johnson Steve Smith Reggie Wayne Players who had “elite” seasons, but need to show more over time: Miles Austin Sidney Rice DeSean Jackson Players on the precipice of being elite,may make the next step: Vincent Jackson Brandon Marshall Marques Colston Roddy White Players just outside elite for all time: Chad Ochocinco Greg Jennings Santonio Holmes and Hines Ward Formerly elite, no longer elite: Randy Moss (still very good) Terrel Owens Torry Holt Coulda/Shoulda Been Elite: Braylon Edwards Promising Rookies: Percy Harvin Johnny Knox Kenny Britt Michael Crabtree ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1188 "2010-01-13T17:46:04Z")
Brandon Marshall has caught 100+ passes in three consecutive seasons (out of four total seasons). He is already an elite receiver, character issues aside. Vincent Jackson and DeSean Jackson should be in the same category, whichever one that is; they were similarly productive this season, although Jackson has been in the league for three extra years. White has three straight ~1200 yard seasons. He is a top ten receiver. You left out Anquan Boldin entirely, which is a crime. He’s one of the five best receivers in the league without question. He’s averaged 1,075 yards and 10 touchdowns per season over 7 seasons, despite missing slightly more than a full season of playing time over that period (and essentially being the Cardinals’ entire offense as a rookie). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1189 "2010-01-13T17:55:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Brandon Marshall has caught 100+ passes in three consecutive seasons (out of four total seasons). He is already an elite receiver, character issues aside. > > Vincent Jackson and DeSean Jackson should be in the same category, whichever one that is; they were similarly productive this season, although Jackson has been in the league for three extra years. > > White has three straight ~1200 yard seasons. He is a top ten receiver. > > You left out Anquan Boldin entirely, which is a crime. He’s one of the five best receivers in the league without question. He’s averaged 1,075 yards and 10 touchdowns per season over 7 seasons, despite missing slightly more than a full season of playing time over that period (and essentially being the Cardinals’ entire offense as a rookie). I originally had Marshal in the elite category but I took him out, although I am not really sure why. I don’t agree with Jackson and Jackosn bieng the same, DeSean has had one stellar season and one very good season, I need to see more. I agree on Roddy White, but I wanted to be pretty selective on my definition of elite. I did forget Anquan Boldin, I would probably put him in the same category as Hines Ward. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1190 "2010-01-13T18:20:17Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > But those same skills aren’t what make for a good receiver. The ability to be good at returning is almost completely unrelated to the ability to be good at receiving. I’m not sure you have any idea of what it takes to be a good receiver. Almost none of it translates to kick returning. I didn’t say it did. I was talking specifically about Harvin, not saying that all skills translate. What makes HARVIN a dangerous returner _and_ YAC receiver is his speed combined with tackle-breaking ability. To put it most simply, he almost never goes down with the first hit, and he has breakaway speed. Those talents are just as valid whether he’s receiving or returning, and they’re the things that make him “as dangerous” as anyone in the League. ETA he also has good hands. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1191 "2010-01-13T18:22:11Z")
**Randy Moss** had 1264 yards and 13 TDs (tied for the league lead). No receiver beat him in both categories this year. The receivers who had more yards had less TDs. Nobody had more TDs. Say what you like about him disappearing from games, but homeboy is certainly still an elite receiver. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1192 "2010-01-13T19:01:29Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > but homeboy is certainly still an elite receiver. On the other hand, Calvin Johnson’s best year (and only good year) didn’t even match that, and he’s on the ‘elite’ list. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1193 "2010-01-13T19:03:39Z")
Poor Calvin Johnson. I feel for the guy. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1194 "2010-01-13T19:09:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say it did. I was talking specifically about Harvin, not saying that all skills translate. What makes HARVIN a dangerous returner _and_ YAC receiver is his speed combined with tackle-breaking ability. To put it most simply, he almost never goes down with the first hit, and he has breakaway speed. Those talents are just as valid whether he’s receiving or returning, and they’re the things that make him “as dangerous” as anyone in the League. > > ETA he also has good hands. You keep saying he is a YAC receiver, yet his results do not show that he’s a YAC receiver. A YAC receiver would produce, you know, YAC. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1195 "2010-01-13T19:11:20Z")
If you ever watch him play, you will see that he is, indeed, a YAC receiver. His catches in the endzone tend to deflate his YAC numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1196 "2010-01-13T19:11:38Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I don’t agree with Jackson and Jackosn bieng the same, DeSean has had one stellar season and one very good season, I need to see more. DeSean hasn’t had a stellar season yet _as a wide receiver_. For all his huge plays he only had 1,167 yards and 9 touchdowns receiving this year. Vincent Jackson has had two seasons in which he was roughly as productive as DeSean was this year. [QUOTE=Dio] If you ever watch him play, you will see that he is, indeed, a YAC receiver. His catches in the endzone tend to deflate his YAC numbers. [/QUOTE] Are you high? He caught 60 passes, and only 6 of them even _went_ into the end zone, let alone were caught there. Even if you assume that all six of his touchdown catches were from 1 yard out that would still bring down his YPC and YAC by a negligible amount. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1197 "2010-01-13T19:18:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you ever watch him play, you will see that he is, indeed, a YAC receiver. His catches in the endzone tend to deflate his YAC numbers. As they do for every receiver. I remember 1 or 2 spectacular plays from Harvin this year where he broke tackles and scored touchdowns. Given how much I’m glad we have him and how much potential I think he has, I was surprised to find out how mediocre his YAC average actually is. Dio, you simply need to admit that the stats do not support your perception. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1198 "2010-01-13T19:21:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you high? He caught 60 passes, and only 6 of them even _went_ into the end zone, let alone were caught there. Even if you assume that all six of his touchdown catches were from 1 yard out that would still bring down his YPC and YAC by a negligible amount. He had TDs of 51, 31, 15, 23, 6, and 3. I’m sure they all would have been from 99 yards if Harvin could have made it. And, what’s odd, is that apparently only Harvin is affected by this TD limits his YAC, instead of, oh I don’t know, every other receiver in the NFL. Give it up. It’s Dio. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1199 "2010-01-13T19:34:32Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > He had TDs of 51, 31, 15, 23, 6, and 3. I’m sure they all would have been from 99 yards if Harvin could have made it. The ironic part of this is that Harvin himself was complicit in preventing this by being the world’s best return man. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1200 "2010-01-13T19:48:26Z")
No one here is trying to say Harvin isn’t a very good reciever, with a lot of potential, but the hyperbole is actually quite humorous. He isn’t elite except in relation to the entire 6 billion population of the planet. Elite is just that, elite. A VERY select group of recievers. My list above while probably containing some issues, still makes the point. Only about a half dozen recievers can be called elite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=61)