# Season Long NFC North Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514 "2009-09-01T17:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1221 "2010-01-13T22:56:04Z")
To be fair, I think they should have just done the penalty and it would long be over. It’s dragged on for two years now. On the other hand, I respect the Williams’ right to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1222 "2010-01-13T22:59:21Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Well, it seemed like a cheap shot to me. Not AT you. As I said, it was a bit of hyperbole regarding two players on a football team who are never going to read this post. It wasn’t a cheap shot at you, yet you felt the need to take one at me. From some posters, I expect that kind of crap when they’re losing an argument, but I didn’t expect it from you. > [@cricetus](#): > > And I don’t think you’re being completely honest with the facts. For example “they were told about StarCaps” equates to a memo they got two years before the infraction, and one that nobody has been able to verify they actually received (the NFL was unable to prove this, IIRC. Just that they sent it out for dissemination). Players get all kinds of crap and can’t track it all. Point being that most players simply know the actual ingredients and watch for them on labels. “We told you two years ago in a badly mimeographed 87 page memo that was one of a thousand memos you got that season” is not really as cut and dried a warning as you want to believe. See how raising actual facts and arguments works so much better than resorting to stupid personal attacks. There is certainly an argument there that they never got the memos or maybe that they never read them, or gave a shit. But they were warned repeatedly about the use of dietary supplements, and the teams and the unions were told specifically that the substance they took was banned. They had seen other players get suspended for the same kind of mistake. But the fact is, the memo was sent, and the onus has ALWAYS been on the player to check and make sure. And reading the label has never been enough, and they were told that too. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1223 "2010-01-13T23:04:43Z")
Hm. But what if the banned substance is in a taco? What if it’s in a diet cola? What if they’re being treated for mono or hives, both of which are treated with steroids, and somehow the doctor messes up and the players don’t realize what they’re getting? I mean, really, is there ANY situation where the player is not to blame for taking something they didn’t know they were taking? Because if there is, that’s one conversation, and if there isn’t, then we’ll just disagree. I don’t really agree with flat platitudes like that. The players can only watch the ingredients listed on stuff, these guys aren’t chemists. I don’t care if the NFL says it’s the players fault no matter what, I don’t have any obligation to agree with the NFL’s platitudes. I suspect they make a lot of smoke while players are privately encouraged to do whatever they can to sneak around the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1224 "2010-01-13T23:05:39Z")
Didn’t Ahman Green get busted for steroids (not to mention spousal abuse)? Yeah, **Cricetus** is right on this one. They took an OTC diuretic (not a “masking agent”), which had a banned ingredient not listed on the label. **Hamlet’s** assertion that they’d been previously informed is highly misrepresentative of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1225 "2010-01-13T23:09:52Z")
I’m sorry that Hamlet was offended, but he should have realized how his comment would come off slipped in there casually by a Packers fan. If he’d said “I don’t like the way the Vikings dragged out the court case,” that’s fine. It’s exactly what Vikings fans say. But saying they were “cheaters” isn’t even what the NFL says. They’ve never been suspected of cheating. Just violating policy. Nothing they did affected their performance on the field. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1226 "2010-01-13T23:10:52Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Hm. But what if the banned substance is in a taco? What if it’s in a diet cola? What if they’re being treated for mono or hives, both of which are treated with steroids, and somehow the doctor messes up and the players don’t realize what they’re getting? Get back to me when that happens. If the NFL suspends someone in those situations, I’ll have your back. But in cases where the NFL tells them repeatedly they should be very careful taking dietary supplements, and their team, their trainers, and their union are told specifically that StarCaps is banned, and the still take StarCaps, well, we’ll have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1227 "2010-01-13T23:12:50Z")
It has not been established they anyone made them specifically aware about StarCaps. It was, at best, one of a long list of supplements circulated in a memo two years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1228 "2010-01-13T23:13:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Get back to me when that happens. If the NFL suspends someone in those situations, I’ll have your back. But in cases where the NFL tells them repeatedly they should be very careful taking dietary supplements, and their team, their trainers, and their union are told specifically that StarCaps is banned, and the still take StarCaps, well, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Again, StarCaps was one on a very long list in a long memo they may have received two years before the infraction. Nobody said “Hey, Pat! Kevin! Don’t take StarCaps.” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1229 "2010-01-13T23:16:45Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Get back to me when that happens. If the NFL suspends someone in those situations, I’ll have your back. But you already said > [@](#): > > \*There is no question that the policy embodies a collectively bargained rule of strict liability - a rule that players alone are responsible for what is in their bodies; that **inadvertent or unknowing use of a prohibited substance will not excuse a positive test** ; and that supplements are used at a player’s own risk. So you don’t agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1230 "2010-01-13T23:22:47Z")
Dallas to win. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1231 "2010-01-13T23:28:38Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > But you already said No. The NFL said that. > [@cricetus](#): > > So you don’t agree with that? In all cases. No, I don’t agree with that. If an NFL player has a taco, a diet cola laced with a banned substance without his knowledge, he should not be suspended. But when they take a dietary supplement that the NFL had banned earlier and they either didn’t know or didn’t care, I have no problem with a 4 game suspension. It’s four frickin’ games, not a prison sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1232 "2010-01-13T23:29:08Z")
Vikings are favored by 2 1/2. Purple will cover. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1233 "2010-01-13T23:30:08Z")
Let them miss the pre-season next year. I’d be ok with that. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1234 "2010-01-13T23:36:32Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > No. The NFL said that. In all cases. No, I don’t agree with that. If an NFL player has a taco, a diet cola laced with a banned substance without his knowledge, he should not be suspended. But when they take a dietary supplement that the NFL had banned earlier and they either didn’t know or didn’t care, I have no problem with a 4 game suspension. It’s four frickin’ games, not a prison sentence. I’m fine with that. They should have just gotten it done last year. But they aren’t cheaters. They didn’t take an unfair advantage or try to sabotage another team. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1235 "2010-01-13T23:41:57Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Dallas to win. We’ll see. I hear Dallas is going to rest their starters and wait for some meaningful football. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1236 "2010-01-13T23:58:45Z")
My head literally (yes, literally) is about to asplode from me trying to determine who I want to root for in the Vikings-Cowboys game. Both teams make me ill. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Kelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1237 "2010-01-14T00:31:29Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > My head literally (yes, literally) is about to asplode from me trying to determine who I want to root for in the Vikings-Cowboys game. Both teams make me ill. Vikings. Root for the SB underdog. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1238 "2010-01-14T01:31:26Z")
The things you guys argue about. Really. :rolleyes: You’d think y’all were Steelers fans. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1239 "2010-01-14T01:51:18Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > My head literally (yes, literally) is about to asplode from me trying to determine who I want to root for in the Vikings-Cowboys game. Both teams make me ill. No kidding. I think I’d be happiest with an outbreak of e. coli that sweeps through both locker rooms. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514/1240 "2010-01-14T01:52:20Z")
Some of you guys have been sippin’ the hatorade. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/season-long-nfc-north-discussion-thread/508514.md?page=63)