# Seattle Minimum Wage Under Fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2017, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042 "2017-06-28T08:43:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/61 "2017-07-01T17:09:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Here it is. It’s from [Glassdoor.com](http://Glassdoor.com). [https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Texas-Roadhouse-Hourly-Pay-E18664.htm](https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Texas-Roadhouse-Hourly-Pay-E18664.htm) People self-reporting crap on the internet is not a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/62 "2017-07-01T17:10:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I > Well, it’s a different issue, but I agree that if they were caught violating one aspect of labor law that it’s not that big a stretch that they are in others as well. Of course, a $700k lawsuit should teach them the error of their ways, so I’d be surprised if they are still playing fast and loose, but maybe they are just stupid. Thanks for the links! Agreed. It’s a different issue. They also just got nailed with an even bigger lawsuit on a different issue just this March. [https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/3-31-17.cfm](https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/3-31-17.cfm) Beyond that, it does strike me as being not terribly difficult to believe that if they’re constantly having to pay the difference they’ll just let the person go for poor performance and not fight it when the person collects. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/63 "2017-07-01T17:14:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, it does strike me as being not terribly difficult to believe that if they’re constantly having to pay the difference they’ll just let the person go for poor performance and not fight it when the person collects. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that your statement is true–that some people will be fired for poor performance. Isn’t that the business’ prerogative? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/64 "2017-07-01T17:17:22Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > People self-reporting crap on the internet is not a cite. Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t know there was such a rule. Would you agree that them getting nailed on multiple occasions for violations of federal labor law is pretty compelling evidence that they’re willing to violate federal labor law? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/65 "2017-07-01T17:19:11Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that your statement is true–that some people will be fired for poor performance. > > Isn’t that the business’ prerogative? Yes. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. I never said they businesses shouldn’t be allowed to. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/66 "2017-07-01T17:51:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t know there was such a rule. No, it’s not a rule of the SDMB, but it is a standard in a debate. Was the “cite” edited, fact-checked, peer reviewed, or anything? Or is it just a bunch of random people on the internet giving their opinions? You do know what they say about opinions, right? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/67 "2017-07-08T10:45:02Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > Simple economics, when workers get more, businesses have to pay more, they can choose to either increase prices, fire workers or lower hours. This is the point where you needed to stick around for Econ 102, where they discuss how workers who earn more money can spend that money at local businesses, increasing revenues. Then in Econ 201, they discuss how businesses can move to and from areas based on the impact of underlying law - businesses who are not helped by higher MW can move out of Seattle, while businesses who are helped can move in. Businesses moving can impact rent and the availability of profits in certain sectors. The economy is a web of interrelated groups from landlords to suppliers, businesses, workers and customers. NONE OF IT IS SIMPLE. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/68 "2017-07-08T14:27:56Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This is the point where you needed to stick around for Econ 102, where they discuss how workers who earn more money can spend that money at local businesses, increasing revenues. Then in Econ 201, they discuss how businesses can move to and from areas based on the impact of underlying law - businesses who are not helped by higher MW can move out of Seattle, while businesses who are helped can move in. Businesses moving can impact rent and the availability of profits in certain sectors. > > The economy is a web of interrelated groups from landlords to suppliers, businesses, workers and customers. NONE OF IT IS SIMPLE. And you, in turn, should have stuck around for Econ 103, where they talk about the various choices that people make with their money. You’ve fallen for the “broken window” fallacy. You see, people don’t magically increase their spending at locally-owned business. Many millions of people have debt that they’re trying to get rid of, and some of that extra money is going to go there. Another large chunk (especially these days) is going to go to out-of-state companies, such as Amazon or other online retailers. Furthermore, you’ve totally missed the negative effects on the economy from the business owner’s perspective. What if he was planning to buy new equipment with his profits? And now that a large chunk of those profits are going to his employees, he no longer has the money to patronize his local supplier, and that loss of business hurts the local economy. Maybe the supplier now has to lay off a few employees because HIS business is drying up. * * * I came in to bump this thread anyway, because of the news from St. Louis. > [@](#): > > Although Missouri’s minimum wage is $7.70 per hour statewide, St. Louis already raised its minimum wage in 2015, with another increase to $11 per hour planned for January. After a two-year legal fight with local business groups, a bill was ultimately passed by the state legislature this spring that bars cities and counties from setting their own minimum wages above the state’s minimum. The bill takes effect on Aug. 28. > **[Missouri forces St. Louis to lower minimum wage](https://www.chicagotribune.com/2017/07/06/missouri-forces-st-louis-to-lower-minimum-wage/)** > > It’s not been a great couple of weeks for those advocating an increase in minimum wages. Late last month, the National Bureau of Economic Research published a working paper based on research … So now we’re going to get a real-time experiment going the other way. Contrary to the apocalyptic hand-wringing by liberals, I predict that there will be few or no negative effects. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/69 "2017-07-08T22:51:41Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > And you, in turn, should have stuck around for Econ 103, where they talk about the various choices that people make with their money. You’ve fallen for the “broken window” fallacy. I’m not saying that it’s inherently a net economic good for MW to increase, I’m saying it’s complicated, there are a million moving parts to account for. Some people do better, some people do worse. The claim in the OP is that the people its intended to help actually do worse. That’s a bold claim, one that is plausible, but not necessarily proven. The goal of increasing the MW is to help people making MW, if that’s at the expense of business owners and results in a small inefficiencies market wide, proponents of a high MW would likely be OK with that. > [@](#): > > Contrary to the apocalyptic hand-wringing by liberals, I predict that there will be few or no negative effects. I’ll suggest that folks whose wages are going from $10 to $7.70 will report negative effects. I’ll also suggest that it’s literally impossible for those folks to NOT experience negative effects. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/70 "2017-07-09T01:02:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully I have a very good understanding of how federal law works regarding tipped employees. > > The truth is that it’s extremely common if not the norm for most servers and bartenders to not make just less than minimum wage, but substantially less than minimum wage and that is assuming they’re reporting their tips accurately, which I don’t think is always a good assumption. You keep adding more evidence of your lack of understanding with every post you make. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/71 "2017-07-09T06:05:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’ll suggest that folks whose wages are going from $10 to $7.70 will report negative effects. I’ll also suggest that it’s literally impossible for those folks to NOT experience negative effects. Why do you seem to think that wages are exempt from the laws of supply and demand? Labor is just like anything else–when the supply shrinks beyond a certain point, the price of it rises. The unemployment rate in St. Louis for May was 4.2%. > **[Unemployment Rate in St. Louis, MO-IL (MSA)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/STLUR/)** > > Unemployment Rate in St. Louis, MO-IL (MSA) That means that (A), most people who want a job have one; and (B), some companies are having at least minor difficulty filling open spots. There are “help wanted” and “now hiring” signs in many places. Last year, both Target and Walmart raised their “internal” minimum wage to $10. [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-target-wages-exclusive-idUSKCN0XF2L4](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-target-wages-exclusive-idUSKCN0XF2L4) When companies like that do that sort of thing, you can be sure that they do it in order to compete better in the labor supply market. They wouldn’t be doing it unless they were having difficulty or afraid of having difficulty in hiring or retaining people. Any attempt to lower wages of current employees to the federal minimum will backfire very, very quickly. They can apply to another company and in many cases get another job almost instantly. You can be absolutely certain that at least 99% of employers are very aware of that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/72 "2017-07-09T11:00:09Z")
Flyer, WRT supply and demand, you are implying that the good people of STL set their MW at $10, which just so happens to be exactly the market driven MW for STL, thus the new law won’t actually impact any workers negatively. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/73 "2017-07-10T17:04:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that your statement is true–that some people will be fired for poor performance. > > Isn’t that the business’ prerogative? But I think the argument is people will be fired for reporting to their company that they are not making minimum wage via tips and that the company needs to make up the difference. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/74 "2017-07-10T18:59:32Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But I think the argument is people will be fired for reporting to their company that they are not making minimum wage via tips and that the company needs to make up the difference. Is there any evidence to support that argument, or just anecdotes? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/75 "2017-07-10T19:47:22Z")
Here is the Federal Law (with some state breakdowns) for minimum wage for Tipped Employees: > **[Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped)** As you can see, the minimum wage at the Federal Level for a tipped employee is $2.13 per hour. The rest is made up in tips. MEASURING that amount is challenging. Luckily for folks running bars and restaurants, the IRS gives a guideline: > **[Reporting Tip Income - Restaurant Tax Tips | Internal Revenue Service](https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/reporting-tip-income-restaurant-tax-tips)** > > Tips your employees receive from customers are generally subject to withholding. Employees are required to claim all tip income received. This includes tips you paid over to the employee for charge customers and tips the employee received directly... “As an employer, you must ensure that the total tip income reported to you during any pay period is, at a minimum, equal to 8% of your total receipts for that period.” So the assumption by the employer is that every check comes with an 8% tip, and the employee is taxed based on that assumption. Whether or not MORE is collected in tips should be assumed, but is rarely documented. Just thought I would add a couple of government cites here on minimum wage, tipping, tracking, etc. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/76 "2017-07-10T21:11:01Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Here is the Federal Law (with some state breakdowns) for minimum wage for Tipped Employees: > > [Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees | U.S. Department of Labor](https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm) > > As you can see, the minimum wage at the Federal Level for a tipped employee is $2.13 per hour. In the very first row in the very first column, labeled Basic Combined Cash & Tip **Minimum Wage Rate** , it is clear that the minimum wage is $7.25 under the FLSA. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/77 "2017-07-11T00:14:37Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > In the very first row in the very first column, labeled Basic Combined Cash & Tip **Minimum Wage Rate** , it is clear that the minimum wage is $7.25 under the FLSA. Yes, but in a world of cash tips, knowing whether or not they make this is a key question. I have been a waiter and bartended, and I made far more than that when I counted my tips at the end of the night. The company withheld payroll and income taxes based on an assumed 8% tip rate on all of my tables, so that is what shows up in any official measurements. So the $7.25 is the minimum you supposedly get, including tips. If you can’t pull down an extra $5.12 in tips per hour - then you are either a terrible waiter, or you have the worst possible shift on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/78 "2017-07-14T06:32:48Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It’s kind of a gotcha. While tipped employees can be paid less than minimum wage (they have their own schedule to follow) if their total hourly wage + tips is less than the minimum wage the employer is required to make up the difference so effectively they have the same minimum wage guarantee. Some of that just comes from assumed tips. This claim is false for the city that is the topic of this thread. There is no separate rule for tipped workers under Seattle’s minimum wage rule (or in the State of Washington, for that matter.) Workers within the city of Seattle have the same wage requirements whether they are tipped or not, and the same is true throughout the State of Washington for its lower $11 minimum wage. The primary exception for the Washington State minimum wage is for workers aged 14 or 15, but that’s orthogonal to the tipped issue. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/79 "2017-07-14T06:51:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really? > > So if I walked over to the Texas Roadhouse down the street and asked the bartenders and servers who worked there if they were paid ten dollars an hour they’d say yes and all the stories about them depending on tips for their living was bullshit they’d nod their heads vigorously in agreement instead of laughing their asses off at me? Nah. There aren’t any Texas Roadhouses in the city of Seattle, but if you went to one within the State of Washington you might learn that that state law requires them to be paid $11 per hour rather than only ten, as well as requiring that they can keep tips. I cannot guess whether or not they would laugh their asses off at you. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/80 "2017-07-14T07:24:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > [https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Texas-Roadhouse-Hourly-Pay-E18664.htm](https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Texas-Roadhouse-Hourly-Pay-E18664.htm) > > server: 3.75 an hour > > hostess: 5.58 and hour > > server/bartender: 3.27 an hour. > > That doesn’t sound like what you claimed that “food service workers are paid at least the same minimum wage as other workers”? > > Are you saying these employees are lying? > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that their total pay, wages plus tips, must meet the minimum wage under federal law. People who claim otherwise are not giving the full picture. You appear to be conflating the terms “earnings” and “pay.” I won’t say that doing so is unjustified, but if your interlocutor distinguishes them instead, then the two of you aren’t really having the same conversation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042.md?page=5)