# Seattle Minimum Wage Under Fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2017, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042 "2017-06-28T08:43:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/81 "2017-07-14T07:31:00Z")
> [@ultimate11](#): > > **Simple** economics, when workers get more, businesses have to pay more, they can choose to either increase prices, fire workers or lower hours. > > The Seattle mayor (and most mayors) clearly should have looked at this more closely. You misspelled “simplistic.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/82 "2017-07-14T13:29:18Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > This claim is false for the city that is the topic of this thread. There is no separate rule for tipped workers under Seattle’s minimum wage rule (or in the State of Washington, for that matter.) Workers within the city of Seattle have the same wage requirements whether they are tipped or not, and the same is true throughout the State of Washington for its lower $11 minimum wage. > > The primary exception for the Washington State minimum wage is for workers aged 14 or 15, but that’s orthogonal to the tipped issue. So waiters and waitresses make at least the minimum wage, even without counting tips? ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/83 "2017-07-14T14:58:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So waiters and waitresses make at least the minimum wage, even without counting tips? Yes. See: [WAC 296-126-022:](http://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=296-126-022) “For the purposes of these regulations, gratuities received by employees shall not be considered a part of the minimum wage.” You can find out more about Washington’s minimum wage requirements here: [http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/Wages/Minimum/](http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/Wages/Minimum/) “Washington’s minimum wage applies to workers in both agriculture and non-agricultural jobs, although 14- and 15-year-olds may be paid 85% of the minimum wage ($9.35).” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/84 "2017-07-14T15:16:49Z")
> [@stretch](#): > > Yes. See: [http://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=296-126-022](http://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=296-126-022) > > “For the purposes of these regulations, gratuities received by employees shall not be considered a part of the minimum wage.” > > You can find out more about Washington’s minimum wage requirements here: [http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/Wages/Minimum/](http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/Wages/Minimum/) > > “Washington’s minimum wage applies to workers in both agriculture and non-agricultural jobs, although 14- and 15-year-olds may be paid 85% of the minimum wage ($9.35).” So that means that tipping is no longer necessary in the state of Washington? ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/85 "2017-07-14T17:23:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So that means that tipping is no longer necessary in the state of Washington? I guess that depends on in what sense you mean by necessary. I tend to agree in theory that as wages on tipped workers go up the average tip should go down. In practice, as a matter of manners and sociology rather than economic theory, it seems to my experience that tipping practices in Seattle are similar to those in other areas in the US. It may be helpful at this point to mention that the State of Washington is not the only one to not have a separate tipped minimum wage; per the US DoL [this is also the law in](https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped2016.htm) Alaska, California, Guam, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, and Oregon, though the minimum is considerably lower in many of those states and Guam. (Businesses grossing less than $110,000 per year in Montana have a $4 minimum wage, lower than the federal one. The higher federal minimum wage for non-tipped workers would therefore apply and make the two minimums different. In practice, I don’t imagine many MT restaurants with waitstaff have a gross of under $110k.) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/86 "2017-07-14T17:27:06Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > I guess that depends on in what sense you mean by necessary. I tend to agree in theory that as wages on tipped workers go up the average tip should go down. > > In practice, as a matter of manners and sociology rather than economic theory, it seems to my experience that tipping practices in Seattle are similar to those in other areas in the US OK, thanks. I just wondered if tipping stopped, since the reason for it no longer applied. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/87 "2017-07-14T17:53:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > You appear to be conflating the terms “earnings” and “pay.” For purposes of this discussion, what, in your mind, is the difference between earnings and pay? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/88 "2017-07-14T18:13:07Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > For purposes of this discussion, what, in your mind, is the difference between earnings and pay? Your _pay_ is just that, your _earnings_ include your tips. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/89 "2017-07-14T19:38:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Your _pay_ is just that, your _earnings_ include your tips. And federal law addresses earnings, not pay. The minimum wage, federal or state, whichever is higher, applies. This horse has been beaten to death, and people still whine that servers only make $2.10/hr or whatever it is. Not true. No matter how many times it gets repeated. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/90 "2017-07-14T19:57:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > And federal law addresses earnings, not pay. The minimum wage, federal or state, whichever is higher, applies. > > This horse has been beaten to death, and people still whine that servers only make $2.10/hr or whatever it is. Not true. No matter how many times it gets repeated. You are correct in that. Their earnings are above minimum wage. Sometimes well above. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/91 "2017-07-14T20:04:52Z")
Unless you’re stuck working the midnight shift at Perkins or something. About 10 years ago I worked late night security at a couple of them\* and they’d have half a dozen tables over the course of 4-5 hours and the majority of those tables either didn’t tip or left coins. I always felt bad for the people scheduled for that shift. - We had a contract for all but one of the local Perkins. Then a waitress was raped at that store while taking out the garbage. Then we had their contract too. Mostly just sitting around reading a book, drinking free soda and walking around outside once or twice, midnight to 4 or 5am. Except for the Midway store, which was busy all night and regularly had fights. I got asked not to return as a guard there because I refused to wade into a fight between 10 gang members. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/92 "2017-07-14T20:08:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Unless you’re stuck working the midnight shift at Perkins or something. About 10 years ago I worked late night security at a couple of them\* and they’d have half a dozen tables over the course of 4-5 hours and the majority of those tables either didn’t tip or left coins. I always felt bad for the people scheduled for that shift. If the waitstaff can show their tips are below minimum wage the employer is supposed to make up the difference. [https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf](https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/93 "2017-07-15T02:52:23Z")
That’s over the course of a pay period. A particular shift could earn less than minimum wage though, which is a real drag. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/94 "2017-07-15T03:05:14Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I used to wholeheartedly support a $15 an hour minimum wage. Now I’m starting to wonder whether we should set it at $12 and have the government subsidize workers through a higher Earned Income Tax Credit. That would achieve the same goal of giving workers on the bottom a living wage, without the possible negative effects on employment. Yeah, there should be a minimum wage, but wage subsidies are a vastly superior anti-poverty tool. One big reason being that wage subsidies can be based on need, whereas wages are based on value to the employer. That also means we have to get over getting upset at businesses for hiring workers who still get some government assistance. That’s the way it’s SUPPOSED to work. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/95 "2017-07-15T03:15:25Z")
I caught this on the news this evening, made me think of this thread… [Several San Jose Restaurants Add Surcharges to Help Pay for Rising Minimum Wage](http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Several-San-Jose-Restaurants-Add-Surcharges-to-Help-Pay-for-Rising-Minimum-Wage-434387353.html) It’s not quite clear that jobs are being lost, or hours being reduced, but prices for consumers are going up. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/96 "2017-07-16T18:54:28Z")
[http://www.thesimpledollar.com/a-dose-of-financial-reality/](http://www.thesimpledollar.com/a-dose-of-financial-reality/) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/97 "2017-07-18T09:29:19Z")
The goal of minimum wage is to avoid penalizing businesses that try to pay their employees enough to live on. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/98 "2017-07-18T11:18:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, there should be a minimum wage, but wage subsidies are a vastly superior anti-poverty tool. One big reason being that wage subsidies can be based on need, whereas wages are based on value to the employer. > > That also means we have to get over getting upset at businesses for hiring workers who still get some government assistance. That’s the way it’s SUPPOSED to work. …thus incentivizing businesses to underpay their employees, making taxpayers pick up the slack, and ultimately subsidizing business profits with public money. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/99 "2017-07-19T14:17:09Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Why the relatively high taxes on cigarettes and alcohol ? The often cited reason by politicians is that that the government wants to discourage the use of both. In other words raising the cost lowers the consumption of cigarettes and alcohol by a certain amount. > > Now we come to the minimum wage and they increase the cost of an hour of work and then are surprised there is now less hours worked ? Because according to the left, there is no such thing as scarcity of resources when it comes to business owners. We are all awash in cash, swimming through it like a Scrooge McDuck gold vault. Therefore, it will not affect anything one bit to require us to dip into the top portion of that gold vault, or forego one night of binging on hookers and cocaine in order to pay our employees more. Seriously, though, this has always been my issue with the minimum wage. Many business owners are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. A business owner may not be making a minimum wage himself, yet society has chosen a policy of social welfare to help those who are incapable of earning a decent wage, not on the backs of society in general, or even through progressive income taxation, but putting it on the backs of the category of “business owners”, whether rich or poor themselves. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042/100 "2017-07-19T22:32:12Z")
And the right think the only thing worse than raising prices is raising taxes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seattle-minimum-wage-under-fire/790042.md?page=6)