# Sebelius makes plans for no Plan B **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663 "2011-12-09T20:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/21 "2011-12-10T05:56:01Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Can we split the difference and eliminate the age requirement, but still have it sold behind the pharmacy counter? If you do that, then you run into this problem: > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > I will say I’ve never denied it from anyone, however back when I was an intern, I did work with a pharmacist once who refused to sell it. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/22 "2011-12-10T07:06:46Z")
I think the FDA should be allowed to do their job. If they say it’s okay to sell Plan B OTC for everyone, then it should be so. I’m very disappointed that the Obama administration overruled them on moral grounds. That is usually Republican territory. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/23 "2011-12-10T07:35:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Most minors have access to condoms and the Pill and that’s not working. > > I can see it from a few different angles. It is really weird to think that my daughter that I don’t have could get birth control without my knowing it. Teenage pregnancy rates are still high but access to information and contraceptives have both reduced the number of teen pregnancies and actually increased the age of first experience. Cite Santelli JS et al., Explaining recent declines in adolescent pregnancy in the United States: the contribution of abstinence and improved contraceptive use, American Journal of Public Health 2007 Also the pregnancy rate is HIGHER in states with more restrictions [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-childrens\_health/t/teen-birth-rates-highest-most-religious-states/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-childrens_health/t/teen-birth-rates-highest-most-religious-states/) So I would ask for evidence that your claim has any merit. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/24 "2011-12-10T08:00:59Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Can we split the difference and eliminate the age requirement, but still have it sold behind the pharmacy counter? In CA that is effectively how it is. Pharmacists are permitted to write (and subsequently fill) the prescription on the spot. A clever workaround. However, I still don’t like it because it means people are limited to pharmacy hours. Plan B should be taken ASAP, so I believe it should be available on the shelf. The idea of little girls buying Plan B with bubblegum makes zero sense. Nobody that doesn’t need it is going to buy it. I suppose Obama wants more unplanned pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/25 "2011-12-10T08:08:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’d imagine it’s because allowing it was too politically controversial. They don’t want people to say, “Look at Obama, letting kids buy birth control over the counter”, especially in the run up to the election. Thing is, the people for whom that matters aren’t going to vote for Obama anyway. Given my experience with teen mothers, and 30 years old grandmothers, I’m all for anything that can reduce the number of pregnant teenagers. I’d sew their knees together if I could. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/26 "2011-12-10T16:36:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Thing is, the people for whom that matters aren’t going to vote for Obama anyway. I don’t know about that. Parental consent for access to reproductive services polls pretty high, cutting deep into the center. Without the center, Obama loses. Having said that, this is just one issue, and I’m not sure how many people, if any, would switch their vote on this one issue. But I think there are plenty of potential Obama voters who would not want OTC access to Plan B by 10 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/27 "2011-12-10T19:56:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But I think there are plenty of potential Obama voters who would not want OTC access to Plan B by 10 year olds. Which suggests three possible outcomes:[ol][li]A 10yo pregnancy, or[_]Plan B and no pregnancy, or[_]Nothing, and no pregnancy.[/ol][/li]And in this case, the only way there is a fallacy of the excluded middle[sup]\*[/sup] is if option 2 is available. - Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/28 "2011-12-10T20:00:35Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Which suggests three possible outcomes:[ol][li]A 10yo pregnancy, or[_]Plan B and no pregnancy, or[_]Nothing, and no pregnancy.[/ol][/li]And in this case, the only way there is a fallacy of the excluded middle[sup]\*[/sup] is if option 2 is available. > > - Think about it. I honestly don’t know what point you’re trying to make, either as it relates to my post or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/29 "2011-12-10T20:10:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I honestly don’t know what point you’re trying to make, either as it relates to my post or otherwise. You are suggesting that some voters think that a 10yo pregnancy is just fine when compared with OTC access to Plan B. And if you prevent a pregnancy, that would be an excluded middle, eh? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/30 "2011-12-10T20:40:55Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You are suggesting that some voters think that a 10yo pregnancy is just fine when compared with OTC access to Plan B. > > And if you prevent a pregnancy, that would be an excluded middle, eh? No. I’m suggesting exactly what I said: many people who would potentially vote with Obama would not want plan B available OTC to children as young as 10. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/31 "2011-12-10T20:50:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s nice and all, but maybe parents want to have some say about medications that their children might take. Right now, the age limit is 17. I propose it would better, if not perfect, to lower the age to 14. What about girls who are raped by a family member? What about other abusive or neglectful parents? Is it so hard for you to imagine circumstances where the teenage girl is in a better position that her parents to know what she needs for her well being? Not every family is healthy and safe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/32 "2011-12-10T20:58:12Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > What about girls who are raped by a family member? What about other abusive or neglectful parents? Is it so hard for you to imagine circumstances where the teenage girl is in a better position that her parents to know what she needs for her well being? Not every family is healthy and safe. No, it’s not hard at all for me to imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/33 "2011-12-10T21:11:07Z")
When I was 15 I could have talked a girl into taking Plan B as our only form of protection. You have to make it somewhat hard to get just to protect girls from having to take a bunch of unneeded medication. I always liked the idea that anybody could get it, but they had to talk to the pharmacist. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/34 "2011-12-10T21:17:40Z")
> [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](#): > > Oh! Well, if it’s weird, let’s stop the whole fucking thing. Sure, more teenagers will be having babies they don’t want, but hey, wouldn’t want you to feel weird. I didn’t say I objected to kids using it outright. I said if I had a daughter, I’d feel weird about her accessing medication without my knowledge. That’s pretty universal, I believe. I’m a parent. I should have a say in those things. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Teenage pregnancy rates are still high but access to information and contraceptives have both reduced the number of teen pregnancies and actually increased the age of first experience. > > Cite > > Santelli JS et al., Explaining recent declines in adolescent pregnancy in the United States: the contribution of abstinence and improved contraceptive use, American Journal of Public Health 2007 > Also the pregnancy rate is HIGHER in states with more restrictions > > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-childrens\_health/t/teen-birth-rates-highest-most-religious-states/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32884806/ns/health-childrens_health/t/teen-birth-rates-highest-most-religious-states/) > > So I would ask for evidence that your claim has any merit. My claim that it’s not working? If teenage pregnancy rates aren’t at nearly nil, it’s not working (to me). Not working enough. And people here claim that kids need access to Plan B to prevent pregnancies. I understand that Plan B is just that - Plan B, not intended to be Plan A, and that other contraceptive methods fail, but I know several women who have had unprotected sex and just went and got an Rx for Plan B. Do you think teens are going to use this as a Plan B or a Plan A? > [@Musicat](#): > > Which suggests three possible outcomes:[ol][li]A 10yo pregnancy, or[_]Plan B and no pregnancy, or[_]Nothing, and no pregnancy.[/ol][/li]And in this case, the only way there is a fallacy of the excluded middle[sup]\*[/sup] is if option 2 is available. > > - Think about it. Do you think that unprotected sex would increase if more options to “fix it” were available? How many sexual revolutions do we need? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/35 "2011-12-10T21:48:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Do you think that unprotected sex would increase if more options to “fix it” were available? How many sexual revolutions do we need? Maybe. Maybe not. But you won’t eliminate unprotected sex, or any sex, by removing an option. All you will do is punish the foolish, innocent, or ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/36 "2011-12-10T21:53:48Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe. Maybe not. But you won’t eliminate unprotected sex, or any sex, by removing an option. All you will do is punish the foolish, innocent, or ignorant. Do you mean to tell me that people having unprotected sex, multiple partners, and sex before marriage was happening at the same rate 100 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/37 "2011-12-10T22:17:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s not hard at all for me to imagine that. Then why do you (and other posters in this thread) think that parents should have a right to know about the medication their daughters take? [QUOTE=sitchensis] When I was 15 I could have talked a girl into taking Plan B as our only form of protection. You have to make it somewhat hard to get just to protect girls from having to take a bunch of unneeded medication. I always liked the idea that anybody could get it, but they had to talk to the pharmacist. [/QUOTE] As has already been said, tons of other far more dangerous and abusable medicine is available over the counter. Honestly, you can make a much better case for saying cough syrup shouldn’t be over the counter than Plan B. [QUOTE=CitizenPained] Do you mean to tell me that people having unprotected sex, multiple partners, and sex before marriage was happening at the same rate 100 years ago? [/QUOTE] Guess what! Times have changed, and they aren’t going to change back. We can either clutch our pearls and rend our garments, or we can wake up and start dealing with it. I don’t give a shit about 100 years ago, and neither should you since you don’t live then. I see you spouting a lot of reactionary nonsense; please, tell us your plan to bring teenage pregnancy to zero, since, as you said, that’s the only level you consider “working”. Bemoaning the fact that life isn’t somehow like a 50’s sitcom doesn’t help. Since increased education and access to contraception are a failure (in your eyes) please, enlighten us on your concrete ideas that will utterly and completely wipe out teenage pregnancy in America today. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/38 "2011-12-10T22:22:39Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Then why do you (and other posters in this thread) think that parents should have a right to know about the medication their daughters take? Where did I say I thought that? I’ll leave aside the fact that you just generalized from “the Plan B pill” to “medication”. I’m assuming you don’t think minors should have access to any and all medications without parents being informed. Right? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/39 "2011-12-10T22:25:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Do you think that unprotected sex would increase if more options to “fix it” were available? How many sexual revolutions do we need? Yes, knowledge and the availability of contraceptives reduce teenage pregnancy, and the numbers show this. Knocking it down to “nil” would probably require the redefinition of teenager. We have a higher rate than other industrialized nations because we have a higher number of religious peoples. These people think that saying “this is a sin and bad” will overpower the horrible chemical soup that is the adolescent brain. I can understand your desire for control but the reality is that most teens would NOT wake up their mom to say “hey I was just out having sex like you said not to and the condom broke, so can we go get plan B and a sunday?” They are going to grit their teeth and hope that they got “lucky”. At ~$40 a pop I doubt many teens can afford to use it for every day birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/40 "2011-12-10T22:38:13Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Do you mean to tell me that people having unprotected sex, multiple partners, and sex before marriage was happening at the same rate 100 years ago? I’m pretty sure that’s not what she means to tell you, since that isn’t what she said. She said you can’t eliminate those things by removing choices - which is demonstrable, because before those choices existed, we still had pre-maritial sex, unprotected sex, and non-monogamous sex in spades. While adding more choices about reproductive control may have increased the number of people engaging in those practices,\* it’s also drastically reduced the social damage caused by such behavior. Which is, again, demonstrable, by looking at the rates of teenage pregnancy, unwanted children, and STD transmission among populations with a robust sex education system, and those poor benighted backwaters that still push abstinence only. \*Except unprotected sex - a century ago, it was illegal to even talk about condoms in much of the country, let alone sell them. Almost all sex at the time was unprotected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663.md?page=3)