# Sebelius makes plans for no Plan B **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663 "2011-12-09T20:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/41 "2011-12-10T22:39:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yes, knowledge and the availability of contraceptives reduce teenage pregnancy, and the numbers show this. > > Knocking it down to “nil” would probably require the redefinition of teenager. > > We have a higher rate than other industrialized nations because we have a higher number of religious peoples. > > These people think that saying “this is a sin and bad” will overpower the horrible chemical soup that is the adolescent brain. > > I can understand your desire for control but the reality is that most teens would NOT wake up their mom to say “hey I was just out having sex like you said not to and the condom broke, so can we go get plan B and a sunday?” > > They are going to grit their teeth and hope that they got “lucky”. > > At ~$40 a pop I doubt many teens can afford to use it for every day birth control. I should also note that some teens are using anal sex as a solution to the lack of access to birth control…if you are worried about unprotected sex the risk vectors are much higher with this form of “birth control” ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/42 "2011-12-10T22:49:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where did I say I thought that? Right here: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s nice and all, but maybe parents want to have some say about medications that their children might take. Right now, the age limit is 17. I propose it would better, if not perfect, to lower the age to 14. [QUOTE=John Mace] I’ll leave aside the fact that you just generalized from “the Plan B pill” to “medication”. I’m assuming you don’t think minors should have access to any and all medications without parents being informed. Right? [/QUOTE] I support the right of people under the age of 18 to use medicine that is safe enough to be sold OTC, which Plan B would be, if not for political interference. This is not a safety issue, it’s pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/43 "2011-12-10T22:54:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > We have a higher rate than other industrialized nations because we have a higher number of religious peoples. :dubious: But is it the very religious that are getting pregnant, or is it the very religious that are preventing others from access to birth control - people who don’t believe in abstinence (or any definition of ‘waiting’ - many parents want kids to wait til a certain age)? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/44 "2011-12-10T22:56:11Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I support the right of people under the age of 18 to use medicine that is safe enough to be sold OTC, which Plan B would be, if not for political interference. This is not a safety issue, it’s pandering. Kids can’t even buy Sudafed. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/45 "2011-12-10T23:09:17Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > :dubious: But is it the very religious that are getting pregnant, or is it the very religious that are preventing others from access to birth control - people who don’t believe in abstinence (or any definition of ‘waiting’ - many parents want kids to wait til a certain age)? It is the religous who are getting pregnant, along with those who live in areas where they are the majority. Kids who are given access to sex education and birth control are actually waiting longer than the kids whom have their access to education and birth control limited by religious dogma. I posted links and cites above, and I asked you for any evidence that supported your stance and you ignored both. [QUOTE=CitizenPained] Kids can’t even buy Sudafed. [/QUOTE] Is Plan B a chemical precursor to Meth? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/46 "2011-12-10T23:20:04Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Right here: Nope. I didn’t say anyone had a right to do anything. I said parents might want… Which is true. I didn’t even say I agreed with such hypothetical parents. I was, in fact, musing about what might be politically possible to do, not what we should do under the most ideal situations. > [@](#): > > I support the right of people under the age of 18 to use medicine that is safe enough to be sold OTC, which Plan B would be, if not for political interference. This is not a safety issue, it’s pandering. Well, that’s not what you said before. **CP** : Sudafed can’t be sold “OTC” in the normal sense of that word. It doesn’t require a perscription, but adults can’t buy it without ID. It would not be sold to children. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/47 "2011-12-10T23:30:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is the religous who are getting pregnant, along with those who live in areas where they are the majority. Cite. The first article you said did not say that. **There’s no proven correlation between “very religious teens” and “teenage umarried moms”.** But it may be in the Bible belt, which is home to many poverty-stricken minority areas, that there is a large unwed mother population. I grew up in a religious area where teenage pregnancy was very small. We had one teenage pregnancy in high school out of 400 kids and she had to be one tough cookie to take the heat for it. For myself, having a kid at 19 was just not how Jewish families did things if they could help it. I still bear the stigma, even if I have been married. [QUOTE=John Mace;14552194 **CP** : Sudafed can’t be sold “OTC” in the normal sense of that word. It doesn’t require a perscription, but adults can’t buy it without ID. It would not be sold to children.[/QUOTE] Well, I can walk into a pharmacy and show my ID and get Sudafed because I’m over 18. I just think it’s weird that kids can’t buy Sudafed but (according to the Dope) should be able to buy Plan B without parent’s knowledge. Personally, I have mixed feelings on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/48 "2011-12-10T23:43:34Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Well, I can walk into a pharmacy and show my ID and get Sudafed because I’m over 18. I just think it’s weird that kids can’t buy Sudafed but (according to the Dope) should be able to buy Plan B without parent’s knowledge. Has anyone here said that minors shouldn’t be able to buy Sudafed? You’re just throwing that out as part of the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/49 "2011-12-10T23:46:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. I didn’t say anyone had a right to do anything. I said parents might want… Which is true. I didn’t even say I agreed with such hypothetical parents. I was, in fact, musing about what might be politically possible to do, not what we should do under the most ideal situations. I misinterpreted you then. I apologize. I disagree with those hypothetical parents. [QUOTE=John Mace] Well, that’s not what you said before. [/quote] What did I say before? I think we are talking past each other here. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/50 "2011-12-10T23:52:56Z")
Here’s my thing: Plan B has a VERY small window of use where it is actually effective. When you require teens to talk to their parents about the fact that they are having sex AND that they had an accident, and then require them to get a prescription, you are essentially removing it as a viable option. And, as someone who very much wants to reduce teenage pregnancy, that seems like a big step in the wrong direction. In a perfect world, teens would have a talk with mom and dad and get on birth control and even have back-up before they ever became sexually active. And they would use it perfectly, and the world would sing in perfect harmony and teen pregnancy would be eradicated. I try very, very hard to create that type of a situation in my own home. But I know that not all homes are like mine. There are kids being abused, neglected, and even raped. And for those girls, I do not feel like some parents’ squickiness about teen sex, or about their kids getting pills without permission, or _whatever_ overrides her right to make reproductive choices that help her. I realize it’s a political minefield, but I still think it’s wrong, and I am disappointed, deeply, in my president. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/51 "2011-12-11T00:01:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Cite. The first article you said did not say that. **There’s no proven correlation between “very religious teens” and “teenage umarried moms”.** But it may be in the Bible belt, which is home to many poverty-stricken minority areas, that there is a large unwed mother population. I grew up in a religious area where teenage pregnancy was very small. We had one teenage pregnancy in high school out of 400 kids and she had to be one tough cookie to take the heat for it. For myself, having a kid at 19 was just not how Jewish families did things if they could help it. I still bear the stigma, even if I have been married. > > Well, I can walk into a pharmacy and show my ID and get Sudafed because I’m over 18. I just think it’s weird that kids can’t buy Sudafed but (according to the Dope) should be able to buy Plan B without parent’s knowledge. > > Personally, I have mixed feelings on the issue. You may want to go back and look again, here is another link, the religiosity had more impact than poverty. > **[Reproductive Health](https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/)** > > Reproductive Health is an internationally celebrated, open access journal dedicated to publishing the most contemporary research which enacts positive change ... > [@](#): > > Increased religiosity in residents of states in the U.S. strongly predicted a higher teen > birth rate, with r = 0.73 (p\<0.0005). Religiosity correlated negatively with median > household income, with r = -0.66, and income correlated negatively with teen birth > rate, with r = -0.63. But the correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate > remained highly significant when income was controlled for via partial correlation: > the partial correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate, controlling for income, > was 0.53 (p\<0.0005). Abortion rate correlated negatively with religiosity, with r=- > 0.45, p=0.002. However, the partial correlation between teen birth rate and religiosity > remained high and significant when controlling for abortion rate I am not going to justify the pseudoephedrine or ephedrine restrictions, but IIRC part of the reason they did restrict it to 18 and over was due to the legal issues that surround collecting data on minors. When you buy it they will log your purchase, if they have a reason to belief your a “smurf” or one of the large number of individuals who travel around buying small quantities to bypass the large purchase limits they could. IIRC you can buy OTC goods while under 18 as long as they do not use pseudoephedrine or ephedrine as the sole active ingredient, depending on which state you are in. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/52 "2011-12-13T01:39:30Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Well, I can walk into a pharmacy and show my ID and get Sudafed because I’m over 18. I just think it’s weird that kids can’t buy Sudafed but (according to the Dope) should be able to buy Plan B without parent’s knowledge. The reasons for putting Sudafed and other OTC cold medicines behind the pharmacy counter have to do with the concern about people using those medications to make illegal drugs. It doesn’t have to do with concern over minors taking the meds for a cold. Plan B is a drug that is very safe for almost anyone who needs it. The risks are low, and the benefits are high. Plan B is not dangerous for teens to take, and is in fact safer than most of the OTC meds sold in the pharmacy. Hell, Tylenol is a more dangerous drug than Plan B, but anyone can purchase it. The only reasons that I can tell that people have against making Plan B available to anyone who needs it is our backwards attitude and denial about teenagers and sex. Personally, I try very hard to talk to my step-daughters about sex and protection, and damn near anything I can think of that they might need to know. Ideally, I’d like them to come to me if they needed birth control or Plan B, but if they didn’t feel comfortable doing that I’d absolutely want it available to them to buy on their own. There’s just no downside to it that I can see. By the time one of them would need Plan B, the sex has already happened, and the most important thing at that point is making sure no pregnancy results from it. Again, yes, I want them to come to me, but I’m not naive enough to think they will always feel comfortable doing that. And I want them to know what to do in the case that they can’t talk to me or their dad about it. And for all the young women out there who have abusive home lives, or no one at all there for them to talk to, or one of the million other reasons that they’d be seeking Plan B on their own—I want it to be available to them with as little trouble as possible. That’s across the board, for my daughters and yours, it’s very important that girls have access to the things they need, the things that conservative parents or abusive parents won’t give them. No exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/53 "2011-12-13T01:48:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You may want to go back and look again, here is another link, the religiosity had more impact than poverty. > [Home page | Reproductive Health](http://www.reproductive-health-journal.com/imedia/1545549611271544_article.pdf) > [@](#): > > Increased religiosity in residents of states in the U.S. strongly predicted a higher teen > birth rate, with r = 0.73 (p\<0.0005). Religiosity correlated negatively with median > household income, with r = -0.66, and income correlated negatively with teen birth > rate, with r = -0.63. But the correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate > remained highly significant when income was controlled for via partial correlation: > the partial correlation between religiosity and teen birth rate, controlling for income, > was 0.53 (p\<0.0005). Abortion rate correlated negatively with religiosity, with r=- > 0.45, p=0.002. However, the partial correlation between teen birth rate and religiosity > remained high and significant when controlling for abortion rate States. Not individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/54 "2011-12-13T01:51:23Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > And for all the young women out there who have abusive home lives, or no one at all there for them to talk to, or one of the million other reasons that they’d be seeking Plan B on their own—I want it to be available to them with as little trouble as possible. That’s across the board, for my daughters and yours, it’s very important that girls have access to the things they need, the things that conservative parents or abusive parents won’t give them. No exceptions. I think that women should have access to their own birth control options, yes. I agree with what you are saying here. The FDA letter approved for girls 17 and older - not shaving much off the 18 age mark there. But like I said, there’s something slightly unnerving about it all. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/55 "2011-12-13T01:52:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Has anyone here said that minors shouldn’t be able to buy Sudafed? You’re just throwing that out as part of the status quo. Read it again. I said according to the Dope, kids should be able to purchase Plan B OTC without parents’ knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/56 "2011-12-13T01:59:01Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Read it again. I said according to the Dope, kids should be able to purchase Plan B OTC without parents’ knowledge. So what? According to some people here, kids should be able to buy plan B. Has any of those people said kids should not be able to buy Sudafed? You should know that the war on drugs is not generally viewed favorably here. As for me, I think we’ve gone waaaaay overboard on the Sudafed thing. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/57 "2011-12-13T03:18:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I think that women should have access to their own birth control options, yes. I agree with what you are saying here. The FDA letter approved for girls 17 and older - not shaving much off the 18 age mark there. But like I said, there’s something slightly unnerving about it all. 16 year olds having kids of any kind or unwanted kids specifically should unnerve you more. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/58 "2011-12-13T16:27:33Z")
I think **John Mace** hit on the obvious “politically palatable” compromise, but since there really isn’t a good scientific justification it’s kind of hard to get the FDA to rule that way. The decision was rather craven, and I’m disappointed in Obama and Sibelius. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/59 "2011-12-13T16:51:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Read it again. I said according to the Dope, kids should be able to purchase Plan B OTC without parents’ knowledge. Do you view young teenagers being pregnant as preferable to young teenagers taking Plan B? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663/60 "2011-12-13T17:27:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Do you think that unprotected sex would increase if more options to “fix it” were available? How many sexual revolutions do we need? As many as it takes. In all seriousness, cite that increased post-sex contraceptive/abortion availability leads to more unprotected sex? I’ll wait. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > Read it again. I said according to the Dope, kids should be able to purchase Plan B OTC without parents’ knowledge. I have a one-year-old daughter. If this bullshit policy is still on the books in ten years, and FDA approval for Plan B for all ages continues to be extant, I will buy several doses of it, give it to her, and continue to do so every time the expiration dates run out without checking to see if they’ve been used. I support the right of my own daughter to purchase/use Plan B without my knowledge. I don’t expect her to, but I support her right to do so. It’s like someone else said upthread–at the point your daughter needs Plan B, she is \*\*already \*\*making reproductive choices without your input and Plan B’s availability doesn’t change that one iota. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sebelius-makes-plans-for-no-plan-b/605663.md?page=2)