# Secession **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273 "2003-05-29T14:55:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/1 "2003-05-29T14:55:36Z")
I recently came across this web site: [here](http://www.jeffersonstate.com) Can this be done? I thought that seccession was a Civil War era idea that nobody thought about anymore. Could a bunch of like minded, non militia type- individuals in a locality decide that they don’t want to be part of their state anymore and start their own? Say you owned a huge parcel of land off in the hills somewhere, so it’s not state land and just decided that you were not Californians anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/2 "2003-05-29T15:03:16Z")
Q: Was it legal for the South to secede? A: We’ll never know; the parties settled out of court. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/3 "2003-05-29T15:04:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryan Mahoney \* > \*\* Could a bunch of like minded, non militia type- individuals in a locality decide that they don’t want to be part of their state anymore and start their own? \*\* They’re free to say it. The trick is making it stick. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/4 "2003-05-29T15:13:32Z")
Presumbly it could be done if all the governments up the line approved of it, and they won’t have to like minded or non-militia necessarily. Of course we have the example of West Viriginia. I am unaware that any territory within a state has ever been released from the country. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/5 "2003-05-29T15:27:04Z")
I’m pretty sure there are laws against secession now. Of course, that’s not something the parties who want to secede are likely to keep in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/6 "2003-05-29T15:31:44Z")
Yeah, I forget the case but in the late 1860s the SCOTUS heard a case and ruled that a state **couldn’t** secede. It was politically convenient. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/7 "2003-05-29T15:34:12Z")
I do know that the state of Jefferson would have a very tough go of it on its own. Those parts of California and Oregon are not exactly rolling in dough. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/8 "2003-05-29T16:33:53Z")
Well, looking at the website, it seems that Jefferson doesn’t want to secede from the Union, but rather from California and Oregon and become another state in the Union. This, however, requires the approval of California, Oregon and Congress, as explicitly stated in the Constitution. IOW, it’s legal, provided they get the three above-mentioned parties to agree. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/9 "2003-05-29T16:36:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryan Mahoney \* > \*\*I recently came across this web site: [here](http://www.jeffersonstate.com) > > Can this be done? I thought that seccession was a Civil War era idea that nobody thought about anymore. > > Could a bunch of like minded, non militia type- individuals in a locality decide that they don’t want to be part of their state anymore and start their own? Say you owned a huge parcel of land off in the hills somewhere, so it’s not state land and just decided that you were not Californians anymore? \*\* AFAIK, no. I believe the Constitution sez that no state can be formed from a part of another state without that state’s permission. Check the early history of the state of West Virginia to see how we gor around that one… ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/10 "2003-05-29T17:22:12Z")
Please quote the specific Article or Amendment that states this. You will not be able to. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/11 "2003-05-29T17:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Trinopus \* > \*\*Q: Was it legal for the South to secede? > > A: We’ll never know; the parties settled out of court. > > Trinopus \*\* Variant wry comment by a professor: “The North and South had philosophical differences on the compact theory of government, its role in the Constitution, and whether it contemplated withdrawal from the compact when it no longer appeared expedient. The North’s constitutional arguments proved superior in 1865.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/12 "2003-05-29T17:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Please quote the specific Article or Amendment that states this. You will not be able to. \*\* Article IV, Section 3: {quote]New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/13 "2003-05-29T17:46:03Z")
Article IV Section 3: > [@](#): > > Section 3. New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress. So “Jefferson” could indeed become a state if people in California, Oregon and the US Congress wanted it to. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/14 "2003-05-29T17:58:57Z")
Seccession is always possible, irregardless of laws. What _is_ necessary is: a) the gumption to pull it off; and/or b) an appathetic parent “nation” that lets you go your way. Examples from history: In the 1770s, Britain’s American colonies tell George III and his buddies to take a hike; after several years of fighting, they do so, and the American Colonies successfully break away from Great Britain. In the 1860s several states seccede from the United States; Lincoln, no more fond of being told where to go than King George was, fights the effort; after several years of fighting, the secceders throw in the towel and give up the attempt. So, if you want to seccede, just do it. But expect the folks you’re secceding from to put up a fight. If they just laugh in your face (and manage to keep collecting taxes from you) then you really haven’t succeded, er, secceded. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secession/178273/15 "2003-05-30T14:27:25Z")
Of course, sections of the U.S. have “seceded,” in the sense that they were once part of the U.S. and are now independent nations. The Phillippines is the most prominent example, but more recently U.S. territories like the Marshall Islands and the Northern Marianas have become basically independent nations (though still tied closely to the U.S.). Since these territories were never states, though, that doesn’t set a precedent that the Jefferson Staters can follow