# Second Amendment Heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719 "2009-11-07T15:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/221 "2009-11-10T01:50:02Z")
I have an idea of a compromise. We ban all guns, but if you turn them in within a week you won’t be prosecuted. Give a little, take a little. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/222 "2009-11-10T01:58:02Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I am. I have informed my family and friends on multiple occasions that I find the benefit of being able to own the arms of my choice greatly outweighs the risk that someone could use the same kind of arms to kill me. I believe in this so much that all versions of my will have had the following clause in them:\* > > **I specifically instruct that my personal representative, hereinafter named, that neither my name, likeness, cause of death, nor any of my estate proceeds shall be used to advanced any political causes intended to limit firearm ownership. My personal representative is specifically instructed to take legal action against any individual(s) or organizations which use or attempt to use my name, likeness, cause of death, or estate proceeds to advance a cause which would limit in any way, shape, or form, the legal possession of firearms by American citizens.**\* > > This is verbatim from my current will. > I’ve had this clause in all my wills for over 25 years now. If I change my mind, I’ll take it out. So I don’t need some clueless dolt deciding what my position is after I’m dead! I might add that to mine, thanks for the idea. Just so people like Haymarket can’t misconstrue my opinions; I might write a manifesto to include my will just for this, detailing my opinion on everything. > [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > And I agree that if you are in the militia you are entitled to the weapons of 1789 just like the Founding Fathers wanted you to have. We _are_ in a militia. I’m an able bodied male – and according to dictionary dot com, Merriam-Websters and Wikipedia, that’s the definition! ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/223 "2009-11-10T02:55:16Z")
Well - aside from squabbling over dictionary definitions, there’s federal code that dictates what legally encompasses the militia in the US, and it basically includes able bodied men between 18 and 45, IIRC. Anyone have the code handy? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/224 "2009-11-10T03:04:41Z")
[§ 311. Militia: composition and classes](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html) (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/225 "2009-11-10T03:11:39Z")
The so called unorganized militia is a wetdream fantasy of the deluded mind of the person hopelessly out of step with the world they live in. We have not had a militia like that in a very long time. Of course, you believe whatever helps you get through the night without having to pull the covers over your head overcome by paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/226 "2009-11-10T03:23:51Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > The so called unorganized militia is a wetdream fantasy of the deluded mind of the person hopelessly out of step with the world they live in. We have not had a militia like that in a very long time. Of course, you believe whatever helps you get through the night without having to pull the covers over your head overcome by paranoia. 😕 If you were responding to **JXJohns** ’s post, were you perhaps unaware that he was citing federal statutes? “Unorganized militia” is the federal government’s phrase. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/227 "2009-11-10T03:30:56Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Why thank you very much for deigning to allow me to continue to practice my individual Constitutional rights, even back when certain folks here said it wasn’t an individual right… I didn’t give you a moment’s thought, your gratitude is misplaced. > [@](#): > > …His efforts are base, unworthy, uninformed, and futile… They almost certainly are futile, in the sense that legal mechanisms simply cannot work. We will have to change ourselves and each other, change our people to the point where someone who thinks that their personal possession of a firearm is a Big Hairy Ass Deal will be regarded with bemused tolerance as we back away slowly and look for an exit. The long way, the hard way, the agonizingly slow way…the only way. > [@](#): > > ..And the whole “muzzle tov” line was lame the first time you used it; it ain’t getting any more witty with repitition… If you find me tiresome, you can stop reading. I’ll get over it. Sure, it will be hard at first, but I think I can find the strength to go on… > [@](#): > > …But keep telling yourself you’re not wrong often enough; that did bring a brief flicker of an almost-smile to my face. Thats whats known in these climes as a “Norwegian grin”. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/228 "2009-11-10T03:31:54Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > The so called unorganized militia is a wetdream fantasy of the deluded mind of the person hopelessly out of step with the world they live in. We have not had a militia like that in a very long time. Of course, you believe whatever helps you get through the night without having to pull the covers over your head overcome by paranoia. Damn the Federal Government and their wetdream deluded minds! ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/229 "2009-11-10T03:40:48Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > The so called unorganized militia is a wetdream fantasy of the deluded mind of the person hopelessly out of step with the world they live in. We have not had a militia like that in a very long time. Of course, you believe whatever helps you get through the night without having to pull the covers over your head overcome by paranoia. Those are Federal statutes. They define exactly, according the Feds, what a militia is or is not. Not a wet dream by any means. Which other parts of the US Code do you summarily dismiss as a wet dream? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/230 "2009-11-10T04:50:15Z")
**haymarket** , you do know there are lots of people out there who own guns for sporting or historic reasons and not because they’re paranoid, right? It’s been well and truly established that a shooting like the one at Ft. Hood could have happened any time since the late 1830s, and it’s further been established that firearm design hasn’t changed much since the end of WWII, except for comparatively minor things like materials. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/231 "2009-11-10T12:16:35Z")
There are plenty of laws which are on the books which are not extended or enforced beyond their existence on the printed page. This is one of them. In the real world of the USA, there is no unorganized militia. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/232 "2009-11-10T12:26:46Z")
In law, desuetude (from the Latin word desuetudo: outdated, no longer custom) is a doctrine that causes statutes, similar legislation or legal principles to lapse and become unenforceable by a long habit of non-enforcement or lapse of time. It is what happens to laws that are not repealed when they become obsolete. It is the legal doctrine that long and continued non-use of a law renders it invalid, at least in the sense that courts will no longer tolerate punishing its transgressors. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/233 "2009-11-10T13:44:14Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > In the real world of the USA, there is no unorganized militia. Unless you’re drafted, in which case you instantly become a citizen-soldier fully qualified to be summoned to federal military service. I’ve started a whole other thread about this. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/234 "2009-11-10T14:15:55Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > There are plenty of laws which are on the books which are not extended or enforced beyond their existence on the printed page. This is one of them. In the real world of the USA, there is no unorganized militia. The whole point of the unorganized militia is that it is what it is as defined by US code. No uniforms, ranks, meetings or anything else. As such, it most certainly exists and here’s the capper, if you are a man between 17 and 45, you are a full fledged member too. [Here is a good place to start…](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=us+unorganized+militia) ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/235 "2009-11-10T14:40:12Z")
JXJohns thank you for the link. I read it. According to what it says > [@](#): > > The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied > males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section > 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a > declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States > and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the > National Guard. So if you are using this language to justify the militia as what is referred to in the Second Amendment, then the right to bear arms would only apply to males, between 17 and 45 who are able-bodied (which I guess means able to pass a military physical) and female citizens in the National Guard. By your own standard, you are severely limiting the right to bear arms if you cling to this fiction. And even then it changes nothing about the language saying it should be “well regulated”. But again, you can write a law which repeals gravity but a written law means little when reality and custom and practice dictate otherwise. That is what is meant by the legal term DESEUTUDE. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/236 "2009-11-10T14:58:41Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > JXJohns > thank you for the link. I read it. According to what it says > > So if you are using this language to justify the militia as what is referred to in the Second Amendment, then the right to bear arms would only apply to males, between 17 and 45 who are able-bodied (which I guess means able to pass a military physical) and female citizens in the National Guard. By your own standard, you are severely limiting the right to bear arms if you cling to this fiction. I’m not. I am just detailing yet another area where you are wrong, but because you have an opinion, that is all that matters to you. > [@](#): > > And even then it changes nothing about the language saying it should be “well regulated”. No it doesn’t say it _should_ be regulated. It states that a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. No more detail than that. All I did was post a link for Senor Beef. You had to stick your nose into it an make a claim that the unorganized militia does not exist, when in fact, it clearly does. I never linked membership with gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/237 "2009-11-10T15:11:59Z")
Any written language in law cannot change something which is not in existence into something which is in existence just because there are now words on the page. Not one single thing has been done to implement this language or turn it into reality. It is simply a legal fiction that is outdated by actual real custom and practice and the realities of American life. There is no unorganized militia no matter how many laws say otherwise. A law can repeal gravity - on paper - but have no effect in real life. So it is with the fiction of an organized militia. In point of fact, one could argue that the very term is an oxymoron in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/238 "2009-11-10T15:23:29Z")
We’ve had this argument in detail dozens of times before, but the quick answer is that it is not the right of the militia to keep and bear arms, it is the right of the people. The militia clause is an explanatory clause rather than the operative clause (hopefully I got those terms right). And “well-regulated” in the parlance of the time meant “well-functioning” (a clockmaker would regulate a clock to ensure it kept proper time, for example) more than “thoroughly governed by regulation”. You’re new here, so you don’t realize this has all been hashed out in quite a bit more detail than this thread contains. You can’t search using the board search feature, so I will link you to some old gun control threads which examine the issue. You can also search this site with google by entering “[search term] site:boards.straightdope.com” … for example “second amendment site:boards.straightdope.com” > **[What does the first part of the 2nd amendment mean?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=468172)** > > Ask a typical person what the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution says, and you are likely to get some variation of the phrase “the right to bear arms.” However, in law, words matter, and anybody giving that answer is ignoring the initial clause in... > **[Come one, come all: Gun Control revisited, revisited](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=48428)** > > Nacho4Sara really drew my attention in This thread over in MPSIMS when she said this: Since I don’t want to get a size 12 clog print on my ass for making an “unmundane and pointful” post over there, I thought I’d start a new thread over here. ... > **[What does the first half of the Second Amendment mean?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=197215)** > > Looking at just the second half, I think it’s pretty clear that it means that the government may not infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. But many people say that such an analysis ignores the first half. I don’t see how the first part... > **[The Straight Dope on the 2nd Amendment](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179028)** > > Whenever some mental-defective or jilted lover gets his hands on a gun and perpetrates criminal revenge against his perceived enemies or a crime of passion against a “loved-one”, the gun-control lobby comes out of the woodwork to take advantage of... > **[What is 'Common Sense' or 'Reasonable' Gun Control?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=118415)** > > Often in gun control debates, proponents of gun control laws will state that they are in favor of ‘common sense’ or ‘reasonable’ gun control laws, yet generally don’t state what they mean by this. So I’m wondering, in simple terms, what sort of... > **[Why is 'Common Sense' Gun Control directed against the law-abiding?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=118941)** > > In the still-active thread on what ‘common sense’ gun control is, I noticed an interesting trend. The reponses all seemed to be centered around restricting people who legitimately possess firearms and not against people who abuse them. For example,... > **[Resolved: Gun control is unworkable and impractical](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333826)** > > It has become obvious during the recent calamity along the US Gulf Coast that we are primarily responsible for our own security. During times of disaster and civil unrest, the government is not capable of maintaining order. After the hurricane the... > **[1st vs. 2nd amendment](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=139961)** > > I’m going to admit right from the start of the debate that I don’t really understand the 2nd amendment all that well. I don’t study it, I haven’t studied it, and, while I have no real problems with anyone owning a gun I’m not a proponent of the... > **[Resolved: The Second Amendment should be repealed.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179347)** > > I say the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, guaranteeing that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” (at least, not by the federal government), should be repealed. It was a bad idea in 1791 and it’s... > **[The Department of Justice: 2nd Amendment upholds individual, not collective...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304238)** > > From a memorandum to the Attorney General dated 24 August 2004: When the guys responsible for enforcing the laws agree that the Amendment applies individually and not collectively, I think that pretty much puts the whole “militia” argument to bed.... > **[Doesn't the 2nd Amendment technically forbid ANY federal gun laws?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458739)** > > Leaving aside the whole issue of whether gun possession is or is not a personal right, or whether states and local jurisdictions can regulate guns to the point of regulating them out of existence, doesn’t the 2nd Amendment mean that regulating arms... > **["A well regulated militia"](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261146)** > > Why do some people have a problem with the first phrase of the amendment, but think the last phrase is the bees knees? > **[Guns, weapons and society](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=251063)** > > The pictures coming over from Iraq clearly show the problems that can happen when the general populace has easy access to guns, weapons, explosives, etc. Someone on Hardball tonight was of the opinion that we should have taken all the weaponry away... > **[Toss up your reasons NOT to allow concealed carry, and I\`ll (heh) shoot them...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=237976)** > > Our wonderful (D) Governor, Jim “Veto” Doyle, has once again vetoed a bill. This time it happened to be a piece of legislation that the people of Wisconsin want, that a democrat actually sponsored, that 46 other states have, and that the US... > **[Does the 2nd Amendment provide a right to self defence in one's home? (D.C....](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=162252)** > > The Cato Institute has filed suit to overturn parts of Washington D.C.'s gun law. The plaintiffs are asking the federal court to prevent D.C. from barring the registration of handguns, banning the possession of functional firearms within the home,... That list isn’t comprehensive, and I know I’m missing some quality threads because I didn’t quite hit the right search terms, but if you’re interested in learning about the issue that will give you a lot to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/239 "2009-11-10T16:00:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You’re new here, so you don’t realize this has all been hashed out in quite a bit more detail than this thread contains. You can’t search using the board search feature, so I will link you to some old gun control threads which examine the issue. You can also search this site with google by entering “[search term] site:boards.straightdope.com” … for example “second amendment site:boards.straightdope.com” Just as an FYI, guests can use the search feature, but only once every 5 minutes. Thanks for the Google tip, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/240 "2009-11-10T16:16:00Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > … There is no unorganized militia no matter how many laws say otherwise. A law can repeal gravity - on paper - but have no effect in real life. So it is with the fiction of an organized militia. In point of fact, one could argue that the very term is an oxymoron in and of itself. I guess if you keep repeating something over and over again, you naturally tend to start believing it. Until the US Code is changed, it clearly states who and what both the organized and unorganized militias are, and all of your hand wringing doesn’t change anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719.md?page=13)