# Second Amendment Heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719 "2009-11-07T15:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/81 "2009-11-08T21:05:41Z")
Am I seriously the only one who is amused that the author of this screed against civilian gun ownership, on the grounds that it leads to massacres of innocent citizens, has a username memorializing one of the most atrocious incidents in American history of _unarmed_ citizens being massacred by _armed police?_ Really? I’m the only one who sees the irony in this? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/82 "2009-11-08T21:14:38Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > That is the tactic you have adopted to “protect” yourself from the rest of civilization. You want it to be about how much knowledge one has about technical specifications of weaponry and not about the absurdity of having such weapons in a civilized nation. It comes across time and time again and it is painfully obvious that it is a curtain you all hide behind whenever the subject comes up. I’m not hiding behind anything. I am willing to waste my own time in the hopes that you would learn that there is no clear line of distinction between “normal” guns and everything else, other than the line that you seem to want to draw yourself, from an admitted and self imposed uneducated viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Sanity\_Challenged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Sanity\_Challenged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanity_Challenged)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/83 "2009-11-08T21:31:25Z")
I’ve read every damn post in this thread. Can I be in the Free Speech Hall of Fame now? ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/84 "2009-11-08T21:51:58Z")
Several people here feel I need some ecucation. Fine. I ask again Why don’t you tell me this? Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/85 "2009-11-08T22:03:13Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Several people here feel I need some ecucation. Fine. I ask again > > Why don’t you tell me this? Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that. Because there is **no difference** between the gun he used and a “regular cop issued firearm,” I already explained this and you said I was wrong. :-/ ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/86 "2009-11-08T22:10:46Z")
Why does someone need a Toyota Camry, a Nissan Maxima, or a Ford Focus instead of a Crown Victoria? Why does someone need to wipe his ass with Charmin toilet paper or Angel Soft paper or Huggy Bear paper or whatever the hell else people use to wipe their asses with? There are different kinds of cars, different kinds of toilet paper, different kinds of pistols. Why does anyone need to eat steak, salmon, chicken, tomatoes, etc? We could all get the same nutrition from a gruel made of mashed vegetables fortified with protein and vitamins! ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/87 "2009-11-08T22:22:42Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Several people here feel I need some ecucation. Fine. I ask again > > Why don’t you tell me this? Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that. It was just a pistol. It was not a super weapon or anything particularly special. It was the evil intent of the user that caused the carnage, not a trait endowed upon the implement. I’m not the first to mention this. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/88 "2009-11-08T22:37:55Z")
> [@](#): > > It was just a pistol !!! And I guess every pistol is made to fire 20 shots with a force capable of piercing body armor? I ask again for a direct answer _Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that._ ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/89 "2009-11-08T22:41:22Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Several people here feel I need some ecucation. Fine. I ask again > > Why don’t you tell me this? Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that. Because there’s really no difference. Automatic handguns as oppose to revolvers have a higher ammo capacity, but reloading is quick enough that the damage a shooter does is more likely to be limited by how much he’s carrying rather than his weapon’s capacity. There’s no practical meaning to the term “military style”, especially when it comes to handguns Automatic pistols with box-type magazines have been around in private hands for a century, and there’s nowhere to draw the line other than to include all of them. As for rifles, all ~.30 caliber bolt-action as well as semi-automatic rifles would be considered “normal” firearm. Semi-automatic versions of rifles designed for military rifles are, again apart from clip capacity, no different from semi-automatic rifles designed for deer hunting. We do draw the line at fully-automatic machine guns and heavy .50 caliber rifles. These occupy a grey area between civilian-style and strictly military and special permits are required. Any ordnance heavier than that is banned outright for civilian use. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/90 "2009-11-08T22:45:50Z")
You have now been given the answer, multiple times. For the record, the police are issued multiple different kinds of weapons depending on the weapon and caliber purchased. The Glock 22, one of the more popular models, has a 15-round magazine. The Sig P226, another popular model, has an available 20-round magazine. The “Dirty harry gun”, a .44 magnum revolver, is vastly more powerful than the ammunition in question. And, as I said on the last page, there is nothing inherent in the FN Five-seveN that makes it more deadly than any other weapon. I know you don’t want to hear this. For some reason you have latched onto something that you have been told, and you refuse to believe anybody who tells you differently. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/91 "2009-11-08T22:49:52Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > !!! > > And I guess every pistol is made to fire 20 shots with a force capable of piercing body armor? > > I ask again for a direct answer > > _Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that._ Standard police issue these days is a 15-20 round Glock in either 9mm or .40 cal. Ask them why a six-shot .38 Special isn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/92 "2009-11-08T22:50:24Z")
I found this on bnet/sports publications > [@](#): > > There are more reasons than low bid why this 16-shot .40 leads in US police handgun sales. More police departments seem to have adopted the Glock 22 than any other make and model. For years, the FBI has given new agents their choice of a 16-shot G22 or the slightly smaller 14-shot Glock 23. > > From the frozen wasteland patrolled by the Alaska State Troopers to the 120-degree streets covered by Phoenix PD, the Glock 22 is standard issue along with numerous other state police agencies and countless sheriff’s departments. How does the Ft. Hood murder weapon compare to the Glock 22 in ways other than it has a larger ammo capacity 20 or 30 versus 16 shot? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/93 "2009-11-08T22:51:30Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > !!! > > And I guess every pistol is made to fire 20 shots with a force capable of piercing body armor? > > I ask again for a direct answer > > _Why would somebody have a legitimate and legal need for a pistol like the one used in the Ft. Hood murders for as opposed to something like the type of standard issue police officer pistol or even the old Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry cannon? I would be greatly interested in knowing the answer to that._ You can get a 20 round or larger magazine for just about every semi auto pistol out there. As was explained earlier, piercing body armor is not unique either. The hunting rifles that you like to think of as “normal” can pierce it just fine. The only way that this pistol could do the same was if the shooter used ammo that is only availabe to the Military and Law Enforcement. But that would be against the law. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/94 "2009-11-08T22:53:37Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > I found this on bnet/sports publications > > How does the Ft. Hood murder weapon compare to the Glock 22 in ways other than it has a larger ammo capacity 20 or 30 versus 16 shot? Similar in size, weight, color and function. The G-22 can be equipped to hold up to 33 rounds if the user is so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/95 "2009-11-08T22:58:50Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > How does the Ft. Hood murder weapon compare to the Glock 22 in ways other than it has a larger ammo capacity 20 or 30 versus 16 shot? I am going to assume that, for once, you are asking this in good faith. .40 S&W ballistics: 165 gr (10.7 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP 1,150 ft/s (350 m/s) 484 ft·lbf (656 J) 5.7X28 ballistics: 28 gr (1.8 g) SS195LF JHP 716 m/s (2,350 ft/s) 467 J (344 ft·lbf) .22 Long Rifle ballistics (for comparison purposes): 30 gr (1.9 g) Copper-Plated RN 1,750 ft/s (530 m/s) 204 ft·lbf (277 J) In addition, you have to factor in the weight of the projectile. A big, heavy projectile will do much more damage than a small, fast projectile. In actual fact, the 5.7X28 has more in common with the .22 LR than with the “service” calibers. I’m not trying to fool you with numbers or drown you with minutiae, I’m simply trying to answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/96 "2009-11-08T23:52:34Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#): > > I’ve read every damn post in this thread. Can I be in the Free Speech Hall of Fame now? I dunno. Did you bring beer and pretzels? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/97 "2009-11-08T23:57:26Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > My understanding is that the 2nd Amendment is the right to keep and bear _arms_, not just _fire_arms, right? > > So, the OP’s proposed “Hall Of Fame” would also have to include people killed with knives, swords, daggers, bows and arrows, crossbows, spears, baseball bats, pointy sticks, and so on. > > It’s not _just_ about guns, you know. Baseball bats are “arms”? Anyway, you have a great idea. Having a great big building for all the gun homicides, then a much smaller one for alll other forms put together, should get the message across quite nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/98 "2009-11-09T00:01:52Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > It has? Again I don’t get the memo. Somebody is getting fired. The severe restrictions on firearms in the UK and Australia still don’t prevent people getting shot there. And in relation to the OP: Are there _any_ anti-gun people out there who are A) knowledgeable about Firearms _and_\* B) don’t want them banned purely because _they_ don’t like them? The OP probably doesn’t want to know that the cap-and-ball .44 Walker Dragoon was the most powerful handgun in the world until surprisingly recently. Modern reproductions of the gun are (AIUI) considered “Pre-1898” (Antique) and can subsequently be purchased by pretty much anyone over the age of 18, even by mail order. Similarly, the Winchester Model 1873 lever-action rifle fires a .44-40 cartridge (which is pretty hard hitting) and a trained user can get two shots a second out of it. Anyone with any experience with actual automatic weapons can tell you that a magazine-fed SMG or assault rifle on full auto will empty its entire magazine in about five seconds, and unless you have some sort of training, much of that five seconds will likely be spent shooting at ceilings due to muzzle climb. In short, the reason firearm enthusiasts keep brining these “facts and figures” out is to try and educate people like the OP who just don’t get the fact that you can’t ban guns just because of the way they look or which movie villain’s henchmen used them. I appreciate lots of people don’t like guns. That’s fine. I don’t like footy. But I don’t call for the abolition of footy and the demonisation of everyone involved because some of the players do the wrong thing sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/99 "2009-11-09T00:09:08Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Baseball bats are “arms”? Anyway, you have a great idea. Having a great big building for all the gun homicides, then a much smaller one for alll other forms put together, should get the message across quite nicely. “Arms” are any kind of weapon, which include clubs, which includes baseball bats- and, arguably, golf clubs, MagLite torches, and rolling pins. You’ll note that, like firearms, all those things have perfectly mundane uses that don’t involve killing people- but that doesn’t mean they can’t be used as weapons all the same. And as I understand it, more people are killed with Not Guns than with guns each year- knives are a particular problem in places like the UK, but I don’t hear calls to ban people from being able to purchase cutlery and cooking knives full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719/100 "2009-11-09T00:24:55Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > “Arms” are any kind of weapon, which include clubs, which includes baseball bats- and, arguably, golf clubs, MagLite torches, and rolling pins. A few years ago there was a thread here about someone facing charges for employing a WMD. The weapon in question was a rock. Thankfully we’ve moved into a somewhat less hysterical era. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-heroes/516719.md?page=6)