# "Second Amendment Solutions" (the \[hopefully civil\] GD version) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921 "2011-01-08T21:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/181 "2011-01-10T18:33:16Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Nothing in that link includes a graphic with actual bullseyes over the districts of the specific members, unlike Palin’s rifle crosshairs graphic. > > Also, bullseyes are generic images, not the same as Palin’s deliberately threatening rifle crosshairs image. I was responding to **Cisco** ’s view that creation of a “hit list,” from which one person then gets shot, would likely lead to an investigation. I don’t know of Kos being investigated, nor do I think he should be. My other earlier links showed the Democratic maps with bullseyes over specific districts, and references to “targeted Republicans.” As for reloads and rifle scopes, I also linked Obama’s remark that “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” Obviously he’s not advocating shooting anyone; this is just how politicians sometimes talk. The distinctions here seem quite narrow to me, and ones that a murderous lunatic would be unlikely to draw. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/182 "2011-01-10T18:34:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > As for reloads and rifle scopes, I also linked Obama’s remark that “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” Obviously he’s not advocating shooting anyone; this is just how politicians sometimes talk. It’s also a well known quote from _The Untouchables_, although in the movie it is meant literally. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/183 "2011-01-10T18:38:38Z")
You want violent political rhetoric from elected officials which will knowingly lead to the death of innocents? That’s [easy enough to find.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/07/AR2011010706528.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/184 "2011-01-10T19:59:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The distinctions here seem quite narrow to me, and ones that a murderous lunatic would be unlikely to draw. If the distinctions are so narrow, would you mind pointing to the leftwing nuts who have recently been bringing guns to Republican events? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/185 "2011-01-10T20:03:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If the distinctions are so narrow, would you mind pointing to the leftwing nuts who have recently been bringing guns to Republican events? They’ve been bringing gluten free trail mix. That’s the left wing equivalent of carrying a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/186 "2011-01-10T20:23:11Z")
Gorp doesn’t kill people, goons with gorp kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/187 "2011-01-10T20:34:49Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > the right is both whipping up a frenzy and striving to arm everyone they possibly can. No, I don’t accept that. Quite obviously: (a) large parts of “the right” don’t care about (in some cases, are opposed to) guns; (b) more importantly, the right, or the gun lobby, is not in any way “striving to arm” anyone. Seriously, when have you seen the NRA or anyone try to force or encourage someone (otherwise uninterested) to buy a gun? “Striving to make guns available to anyone who wants them?” That would be closer to reality. Which comes down to free will. Which, I know, a large swath of the left doesn’t get. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/188 "2011-01-10T20:46:51Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Seriously, when have you seen the NRA or anyone try to force or encourage someone (otherwise uninterested) to buy a gun? [Virgin, Utah](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95092&tqkw=&tqshow=&page=1) and [Kennesaw, Georgia](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1719257620070418) come to mind. I am sure there are others. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/189 "2011-01-10T20:48:21Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Also from that CNN article, Loughner is being represented byt he lawyer who represented the Unabomber and Zacharias Massouei. (Just a note, I’m glad Loughner is getting proper representation but that poor lawyer must have racked up some serious bad karma to get that line up.) I don’t know if this has been addressed already but there are some lawyers who consider it their purpose in life to ensure that those accused of horrible crimes getlegal representation no matter how horrible the crime and even if they defendant is guilty as sin. If this guy is in fact as crazy as everyone seems to think, maybe he needs to be put inan asylum instead of in a prison. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/190 "2011-01-10T20:51:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Virgin, Utah](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95092&tqkw=&tqshow=&page=1) and [Kennesaw, Georgia](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1719257620070418) come to mind. I am sure there are others. It’s a positive groundswell! (collective pop. 30,394). Or democracy in action (I know, democracy’s not popular on the left either). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/191 "2011-01-10T20:53:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know if this has been addressed already but there are some lawyers who consider it their purpose in life to ensure that those accused of horrible crimes getlegal representation no matter how horrible the crime and even if they defendant is guilty as sin. > > If this guy is in fact as crazy as everyone seems to think, maybe he needs to be put inan asylum instead of in a prison. Yeah, don’t cry for that lawyer. There are two types who love these cases – True Believers, who can be kind of charming up to a point, and publicity hounds. Both are quite satisfied with their station in life. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/192 "2011-01-10T20:54:00Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > It’s a positive groundswell! (collective pop. 30,394). > > Or democracy in action (I know, democracy’s not popular on the left either). So you concede your statement was false. That’s all I was pointing out. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/193 "2011-01-10T20:58:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So you concede your statement was false. That’s all I was pointing out. Symbolic actions (how many prosecutions do you think have been brought under those laws?) taken by small towns, in reaction to gun bans elsewhere, are no more real to me than some loopy Calif. beach town enacting a nuclear freeze or whatever. It’s hardly any kind of real policy of “some on the right” as posited in the post I objected to and yours. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/194 "2011-01-10T21:24:47Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Yeah, don’t cry for that lawyer. There are two types who love these cases – True Believers, who can be kind of charming up to a point, and publicity hounds. Both are quite satisfied with their station in life. Everyone in this country, even the completely evil and the shithouse mouse batshit crazy, are entitled to legal representation - even when they are guilty as all hell. It’s the law. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/195 "2011-01-10T21:26:25Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Everyone in this country, even the completely evil and the shithouse mouse batshit crazy, are entitled to legal representation - even when they are guilty as all hell. It’s the law. I don’t disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/196 "2011-01-10T21:51:13Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I was responding to **Cisco** ’s view that creation of a “hit list,” from which one person then gets shot, would likely lead to an investigation. I don’t know of Kos being investigated, nor do I think he should be. > > My other earlier links showed the Democratic maps with bullseyes over specific districts, and references to “targeted Republicans.” And I’m saying you’re wrong. I’m saying that using words like ‘target’ and ‘bullseye’ is categorically different than putting up a map with rifle crosshairs over your opponent’s hometown. One is common language usage, one is unique. That’s why Kos is not being investigated. Because what he did is _different_ than what Palin did when she painted a rifle scope pointing at Gabrielle Giffords’ district. And Palin is, as far as we know, not being investigated either. But I fully agree with Cisco that if I, a random loudmouth, put up a map of Alaska with gun sights drawn on Palin’s town, I’d be talking to the FBI about it. If Palin got so much as a fender bender, I’d be in jail. > [@](#): > > As for reloads and rifle scopes, I also linked Obama’s remark that “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” Obviously he’s not advocating shooting anyone; this is just how politicians sometimes talk. 1. Obama was quoting a movie, “The Untouchables”, which is set in Chicago and deals with FBI agents investigating the Mob. The line is spoken by an older agent explaining how hard the fight is going to get. It’s not a direct threat to anyone, unlike, say, putting out a graphic with a rifle scope pointing at Gifford’s hometown. 2. Obama said it as a joke, about Philadelphia Eagles fans, at a Philadelphia fundraiser. [Cite: an article written at the time](http://www.politicususa.com/en/Obama-Philly) > [@](#): > > At a fundraiser in Philadelphia where he was flanked by PA governor Ed Rendell, Philadelphia mayor Michael Nutter, and Sen. Bob Casey, Barack Obama said, “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun. Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.” 1. Equivalency FAIL > [@](#): > > The distinctions here seem quite narrow to me, and ones that a murderous lunatic would be unlikely to draw. The ‘murderous lunatic’ was apparently together enough that he was able to legally purchase a firearm and ammo. Just sayin. The distinctions are there. All the hand-waving, the “your side does it too!!”, the pretending that Palin’s rifle scope marks were surveyor’s marks or what have is just chickenshit. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/197 "2011-01-10T22:02:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Merneith](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Merneith View Post > > Also from that CNN article, Loughner is being represented byt he lawyer who represented the Unabomber and Zacharias Massouei. (Just a note, I’m glad Loughner is getting proper representation but that poor lawyer must have racked up some serious bad karma to get that line up.) > > I don’t know if this has been addressed already but there are some lawyers who consider it their purpose in life to ensure that those accused of horrible crimes getlegal representation no matter how horrible the crime and even if they defendant is guilty as sin. > > If this guy is in fact as crazy as everyone seems to think, maybe he needs to be put inan asylum instead of in a prison. Yeah, I get it. I’m a fan of those lawyers, just to be clear. I really am glad that Loughner is getting good representation, like the constitution says he should. I was just saying that it must be discouraging for a lawyer to keep getting losing hands, even if he thinks he’s doing something important. As for putting him in an asylum … in general I have no problem with it, if it’s warranted. I’d prefer people with serious mental problems to get the health care they need rather than just throw them to rot in jail. But that’s a whole other can of worms given the way our justice system is set up. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/198 "2011-01-10T22:04:34Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Posted on Pharyngula today: > > [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/01/dont\_politicize\_this\_tragedy.php](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/01/dont_politicize_this_tragedy.php) That link deserves to be clicked on, which a lot of people aren’t going to do without a sample of what’s there: > [@](#): > > What we have here is an attempted assassination of a politician by an insane crank at a political event, in a state where the political discourse has been an unrelenting howl of eliminationist rhetoric and characterization of anyone to the left of Genghis Khan as a traitor and enemy of the state…and now, when six (including a nine year old girl) lie dead and another fourteen are wounded, now suddenly we’re concerned that it is rude and politicizing a tragedy to point out that the right wing has produced a toxic atmosphere that pollutes our politics with hatred and the rhetoric of violence? > > Screw that. Now is the time to politicize the hell out of this situation. The people who are complaining are a mix of lefty marshmallows whose first reaction to the fulfillment of right-wing fantasies by a lunatic is to drop to their knees and beg forgiveness for thinking ill of people who paint bullseyes on their political opponents, and right wing cowards who are racing to their usual tactic of attacking their critics to shame them into silence. This is NOT the time to back down and suddenly find it embarrassing to point out that right-wing pundits make a living as professional goads to insanity. > [@](#): > > I find it abhorrent that Sarah Palin would stoke the coals of extremism with dangerous messaging, then delete it when something bad happens. - Jason Pollock > > Sarah Palin rummages online frantically erasing her rabble-rousing Tweets like a Stalinist trimming non-persons out of photos. - Roger Ebert > > I’ll say this, if your first instinct after hearing about a tragedy is to scrub yr websites, you have a problem as a political movement. - digby56 > [@](#): > > Do not sit there cowering, trying to make excuses for teabaggers and violent morons. This is supposed to be the part where you stand up, look at the shouters on the other side, and tell them, “This is wrong, and this is the harm you bring to our country.” Instead, I see a rush to postures of submission. > -PZ Meyers ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/199 "2011-01-10T22:14:19Z")
Glad you quoted it. “Screw that. Now is the time to politicize the hell out of this situation.” This is exactly what we don’t need. An invitation to raise the heat of political discourse even higher than it is. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/200 "2011-01-10T22:20:58Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > That link deserves to be clicked on, which a lot of people aren’t going to do without a sample of what’s there: It’s interesting to see that PZ doesn’t draw the same distinction between bulls-eyes and crosshairs that many here are doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921.md?page=11)