# "Second Amendment Solutions" (the \[hopefully civil\] GD version) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921 "2011-01-08T21:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/41 "2011-01-09T01:23:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The OP said that the guy was a rabid Republican gunning down Democrats because of Sarah Palin. This statement has no basis in reality. Please retract. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/42 "2011-01-09T01:27:49Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Almost every single sentence in the OP ends with a question mark. I am trying to promote civil discussion, and you’re trying to stir up a shouting match. And that’s exactly the technique used by Beck et al. They’re just asking questions. Why doesn’t Oabam show us his birth certificate? They just want a civil debate aon the subject. As for the motivation of the shooter, I’ll wait until I have some facts. We know almost nothing about the details of the tragic events today. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/43 "2011-01-09T01:28:04Z")
The funny thing is that I’m not putting any blame on the politicians that could had influenced the guy. Only that if this goes like in many previous killings nothing much will be done regarding the mental health care angle. Of course if it turns to be a politically motivated act, oy!.. I expect many from the right wingers to make a lot of hay with the report that the shooter read the communist manifesto and Mein kampf, it is nonsense, but Glenn Beck and their ilk already have said that liberals are Nazis \*\*and \*\*communists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/44 "2011-01-09T01:30:34Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This statement has no basis in reality. Please retract. That’s exactly what you said: > [@](#): > > How often was it discussed that someone could/probably would die from all the rabble rousing that Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, etc have been indulging in lately? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/45 "2011-01-09T01:31:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And that’s exactly the technique used by Beck et al. They’re just asking questions. Why doesn’t Oabam show us his birth certificate? They just want a civil debate aon the subject. > > As for the motivation of the shooter, I’ll wait until I have some facts. We know almost nothing about the details of the tragic events today. No, I’m actually asking honest questions that are meant to promote discussion, and I’m actually listening to the responses. I am very well-acquainted with the “JAQing Off” technique you are referring to, and that is not what I am doing. The questions aren’t particularly leading, either. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/46 "2011-01-09T01:32:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s exactly what you said: Ummm, no the hell it’s not. What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/47 "2011-01-09T01:35:52Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This statement has no basis in reality. Please retract. Maybe it wasn’t your belief, but it was the thrust of the OP for discussion. “Isn’t it predictable that with Palin and them all rabble-rousing that someone would go out and do this?” ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/48 "2011-01-09T01:40:51Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Maybe it wasn’t your belief, but it was the thrust of the OP for discussion. Knock it off. The OP does not mention the word Republican (or Right, or Conservative). I actually don’t believe that the guy is a Republican. He seems pretty far removed from mainstream ideological thought. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t influenced by rantings he saw on tv or read on the web, though. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > “Isn’t it predictable that with Palin and them all rabble-rousing that someone would go out and do this?” Read what I said for comprehension. I wasn’t pointing out that this was predictable, I was pointing out that it was predicted, which is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/49 "2011-01-09T01:43:00Z")
For whatever it’s worth I just saw a local Arizona sheriff on MSNBC talking about how the political vitriol of some on radio and TV is not without consequences. I don’t know what his statements were based on, but they _may_ be based on things Loughner has said that we don’t know about yet. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/50 "2011-01-09T01:45:15Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Ummm, no the hell it’s not. What are you talking about? Well, why don’t you tell us why you asked how often it was discussed if you weren’t assuming it was true? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/51 "2011-01-09T01:46:10Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I was pointing out that it was predicted, which is a fact. Someone predicted that Sarah Palin and Glen Beck would drive murderers to kill. This guy killed because he was a nutsoid, and who’d be just as likely to murder Sarah Palin and Glen Beck, and who would have been just as likely to have gone out and murdered politicians regardless of whether Glen Beck and Sarah Palin had never existed. If I predict that the population of China will all jump up at the same time one day and cause an earthquake, when an earthquake occurs five months later, _I didn’t predict that earthquake_. I only predicted it if, indeed, all of the population of China jumped up at the same time one day. If they didn’t, then I didn’t predict jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/52 "2011-01-09T01:47:46Z")
> [@godix](#): > > It also depends on if he has ever been diagnosed with a mental illness. Random people going ‘wow, what a wacko’ isn’t grounds to remove a right from someone. IIRC, a law was made after the Virginia university shooter killed many, it was a wonder of bipartisanship cooperation, but it had to be passed only after a tragedy took place, it does allow also for mental illness to be a factor in denying guns when background checks are made when purchasing a gun, but you can see already how it can be circumvented, what I see is that to really plug this hole better, then more access to mental health care is needed and to move to deal or monitor people that doctors (not only the state) declare to be a danger. Unfortunately one then has to remember the big block in the road to that, can you guess who are the people that would be more against giving free mental health care for the needy or at a discounted rate? > [@godix](#): > > Although really, if he was known to be a dangerous violent crazy person, my concern is more why was he allowed to roam the streets at all. A court can, and should, institutionalize mentally ill with violent tendencies. Yes, but even in state that claims to do so it is clear this effort to wait until someone is declared dangerous until a court decides is not working. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/53 "2011-01-09T01:50:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Someone predicted that Sarah Palin and Glen Beck would drive murderers to kill. > > This guy killed because he was a nutsoid, and who’d be just as likely to murder Sarah Palin and Glen Beck, and who would have been just as likely to have gone out and murdered politicians regardless of whether Glen Beck and Sarah Palin had never existed. > > If I predict that the population of China will all jump up at the same time one day and cause an earthquake, when an earthquake occurs five months later, _I didn’t predict that earthquake_. I only predicted it if, indeed, all of the population of China jumped up at the same time one day. If they didn’t, then I didn’t predict jack shit. You know, you wouldn’t seem nearly as dishonest if you weren’t going around in circles. You already asked for clarification on this point, and I provided it way back in post #30 > [@Sage Rat](#): > > Predicted what? > [@Cisco](#): > > That attacks on Democratic politicians would continue to escalate. And whether this is directly related or not, it happened, and thus is worth discussing. I know you read that because you quoted it in the very next post. Can you please stop trying to hijack the thread now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/54 "2011-01-09T01:51:47Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Knock it off. The OP does not mention the word Republican (or Right, or Conservative). I actually don’t believe that the guy is a Republican. He seems pretty far removed from mainstream ideological thought. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t influenced by rantings he saw on tv or read on the web, though. > > Read what I said for comprehension. I wasn’t pointing out that this was predictable, I was pointing out that it was predicted, which is a fact. So, the people who predicted Palin would incite violence were just predicting random violence, not partisan violence? It is not a fact that what happened was predicted per your question in the OP. That question assumes the person was incited by the rhetoric of Palin, et al. If you can prove the shooter was motivated by those folks, you haven’t shown it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/55 "2011-01-09T01:53:35Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > That attacks on Democratic politicians would continue to escalate. It’s the same answer. There’s no evidence that he attacked her because she was a Democratic politician. He’d have shot her if she was a Republican. Ergo, the prediction wasn’t a prediction. And what in the world is “escalation” supposed to mean? 0 murderers to 1 murderer and (presumably) now back to 0 murderers in not an escalation unless there’s been a rash of political assassinations recently that I’m unaware of. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/56 "2011-01-09T01:53:47Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > What if Jared Loughner tells the FBI that [Sarah Palin motivated him](http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID14552/images/pac(1).jpg)? Could there be legal ramifications for her? No. Why would you think there would be? ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/57 "2011-01-09T02:03:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > what I see is that to really plug this hole better, then more access to mental health care is needed and to move to deal or monitor people that doctors (not only the state) declare to be a danger. > > . . . > > Yes, but even in state that claims to do so it is clear this effort to wait until someone is declared dangerous until a court decides is not working. I generally agree, although I don’t entirely buy into the health care reform bit you slipped in. However, there is a real concern of making it too easy to declare someone as dangerously crazy. If it just took a single doctor, rather than a court, then isn’t that too much power in one person? Can the decision be appealed? What’s to prevent it from being used as a tactic against others, IE one politician bribing a doctor to have his opponent declared insane and institutionalized? Considering many have real concerns about some forms of mental health being over diagnosed (ADD/ADHD for example), what safe guards are there against that happening with this idea? Plus, from a purely cold hearted utilitarian view, if we could prevent a shooting of a dozen by mistakenly locking up more than a dozen people, is society actually better or worse off? As you mentioned, it takes tragedies like this to prompt people to improve things. Something though, tragedies cause people to overreact though. Consider post 9/11 actions. So while I would love to see better mental health care in this country, and I think it would prevent some cases like today, I don’t want to see an over reaction that cause more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/58 "2011-01-09T02:06:45Z")
If I understand the OP, then anyone speaking must conform their words to be properly heard by the most insane person that could be listening. In other words, just because when 99.99999% of people hear Sarah Palin saying, “Don’t retreat, reload” they obvious understand the metaphor doesn’t mean that she should be in trouble because of one person in the whole world that may misunderstand. Should we arrest high school cheerleaders imploring their teams to “fight” or “kill” because an insane person may not understand that those words are used in terms of sport? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/59 "2011-01-09T02:14:19Z")
> [@godix](#): > > However, there is a real concern of making it too easy to declare someone as dangerously crazy. If it just took a single doctor, rather than a court, then isn’t that too much power in one person? Can the decision be appealed? What’s to prevent it from being used as a tactic against others, IE one politician bribing a doctor to have his opponent declared insane and institutionalized? Considering many have real concerns about some forms of mental health being over diagnosed (ADD/ADHD for example), what safe guards are there against that happening with this idea? If I was organizing this, of course it can be appealed, and I thought I implied this, but I have to add that it takes two steps to keep a criminally insane out of the street, there is the opinion of the doctors and then the police investigates if guns are involved with the individual. Even then I would agree that this could be appealed to court and if a judge finds no reason to keep you from guns, then that is that. It seems to me that currently the default position is to ignore the people that have problems… and hope for the best. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921/60 "2011-01-09T02:15:54Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > EDIT in case this gets bumped in the future: Thread is about [the shooting of US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords](http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1) > > In all calm honesty, how many of us predicted this? How often was it discussed that someone could/probably would die from all the rabble rousing that Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, etc have been indulging in lately? > > What if Jared Loughner tells the FBI that [Sarah Palin motivated him](http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID14552/images/pac(1).jpg)? Could there be legal ramifications for her? > > Should there be any legal ramifications for this? Someone on another website pointed to [this](http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/01201.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS): > > Will anything change? On the one hand, you can’t predict what a maniac will do. On the other hand, you can’t post gunsight targets and jabber about “second amendment solutions” and get off scot free either. Other than that, how many times can the old “no one could have foreseen” excuse be trotted out? It would be a hell of a stretch to build a “incitement to violence” charge, but maybe certain people need to be reminded that the “court of public opinion” (the court that ends political careers) is not quite so forgiving sometimes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-amendment-solutions-the-hopefully-civil-gd-version/566921.md?page=4)