# Second best shortstop? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 15, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037 "2010-01-15T03:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/21 "2010-01-15T22:09:29Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > With that said, while Ozzie’s defense was unparalleled, his overall impact was attenuated by his putrid bat. Well, not putrid, but you know what I mean. Not only do I not consider him the greatest shortstop ever, I’m not even sure he’s that much better than Bill Dahlen, who never got within sniffing distance of the Hall. Or even Alan Trammell, for that matter. Ozzie got to the Hall because of his glove, not bat. **Fielding Percentage:** / Games Dahlen .926/ 2139 Trammell .977/2132 Smith .978/ 2511 While Ozzie didn’t have a significantly numbers he did it in 379 more games. Also the **Total Fielding Runs Above Average** \* (sorry for getting all saber) of Ozzie over Trammell is frankly ridiculous . **Total Fielding Runs Above Average** Smith-- 238.7 Trammell-- 81.1 - Total Fielding Runs Above Average is the “Number of runs above or below average that the player was worth based on the number of plays made”-- Baseball Reference ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/22 "2010-01-15T22:18:18Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > If memory serves (and it certainly doesn’t always do that) wasn’t there a thread a couple years ago where we of the SDMD went position by position to determine who were the greatest players? I looked for that thread but couldn’t find it. If someone could link to it it might throw some light on the current discussion. There were a number of threads but I never fionished the project. Anyway, the SDMB chose the following shortstops for the SDMB Hall of Fame: Honus Wagner Cal Ripken Jr. Robin Yount Arky Vaughan Alex Rodriguez Luke Appling Ozzie Smith Joe Cronin Ernie Banks Lou Boudreau Derek Jeter Just missed: Barry Larkin That is ordered by vote total. Wagner was unanimous, IIRC. So at the time the consensus was that Ripken was #2. Note that this was held halfway through the 2008 season, so Jeter has added to his credentials since. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/23 "2010-01-15T22:20:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > Bolding mine. Jeter is not far inferior. He might not be the 5 tool player that A-Rod is, might lack his range, but he’s a hall of fame player, not the September call up that he gets treated as here on occasion. He’s got more hits than anyone else to play the position, and I believe that his greatest asset is his leadership (which can’t be quantified, and is mostly subjective). You can feel (and I mean that word literally) however you like about Derek Jeter, but you appear to be unaware of how pedestrian his production has been in the context of the all-time greatest. Alex Rodriguez is going to retire as like the fourth or fifth best player in the history of the game. How far down does Jeter have to be on the list for you to have to acknowledge that nobody’s treating him like anything at all other than exactly what he is? He’s a great singles and doubles guy who gets on base enough and slugs .450, and is a career liability with his glove at an essential defensive position. He’s led the league in hits once, runs once, and plate appearances a couple of times, and nothing else. He’s hit 20 homers three times. When A-Rod hit 30 last year, it was only the third time in 10 seasons that he _didn’t_ hit 40. Jeter’s average is only 10 points higher, and A-Rod still has a higher on-base. There is literally nothing that Jeter can do that Rodriguez doesn’t do better, except hit singles, and even in that he can only barely claim the edge. Rodriguez’ career WAR is over 99. Jeter’s is under 69; right behind Luke Appling and Barry Larkin. Far inferior, oh hell yes he is, and so is everybody else who isn’t the Flying Dutchman. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/24 "2010-01-15T22:23:50Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > [Hmm](http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/get-the-fuck-out.jpg). This link brings up a page that says [img.moonbuggy.org](http://img.moonbuggy.org). ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/25 "2010-01-15T22:25:06Z")
> [@RetroVertigo](#): > > Ozzie got to the Hall because of his glove, not bat. > > **Fielding Percentage:** / Games > Dahlen .926/ 2139 > Trammell .977/2132 > Smith .978/ 2511 > > While Ozzie didn’t have a significantly numbers he did it in 379 more games. Also the **Total Fielding Runs Above Average** \* (sorry for getting all saber) of Ozzie over Trammell is frankly ridiculous . > > **Total Fielding Runs Above Average** > > Smith-- 238.7 > Trammell-- 81.1 > > - Total Fielding Runs Above Average is the “Number of runs above or below average that the player was worth based on the number of plays made”-- Baseball Reference Yeah, I didn’t say anything differently. But putting aside the question of whether someone deserves the HoF based almost solely on fielding prowess, my point is that a shortstop’s contribution to his team is hitting + fielding. If you hit well enough that you negate the runs you give up in the field, defense doesn’t matter so much. Adam Everett is one of the most marvelous fielding shortstops I’ve seen in the league, but don’t tell me that he contributes more to his team than Hanley Ramirez. And definitely don’t tell me he deserves to go into the Hall. So what you leave out is that when you account for the bat, Ozzie Smith compiled a career 64.7 WAR (Wins Above Replacement), Trammell 66.8 (in fewer games, I might add), and Dahlen 75.9 (also in fewer games). ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/26 "2010-01-15T22:27:56Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > Yeah, I didn’t say anything differently. But putting aside the question of whether someone deserves the HoF based almost solely on fielding prowess, my point is that a shortstop’s contribution to his team is hitting + fielding. If you hit well enough that you negate the runs you give up in the field, defense doesn’t matter so much. Adam Everett is one of the most marvelous fielding shortstops I’ve seen in the league, but don’t tell me that he contributes more to his team than Hanley Ramirez. And definitely don’t tell me he deserves to go into the Hall. Not even if he did contribute more, and does deserve it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/27 "2010-01-15T22:30:32Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > You know that he plays _baseball_, right? That’s b-a-s-e-b-a-l-l, the game of championship teams with ‘nine players, nine cabs’, the game where teammates interact --other than pitcher and catcher and throwing to the first baseman – maybe once every four to five innings, and even that is just deciding which one of two people is going to catch the ball? And statisticians can’t even find proof that the catcher has any effect on the pitcher, let alone the shortstop? > > You’re going with leadership as a key skill of a baseball player? As SNL Weekend Update would say, “Really?” > > Maybe we can just all agree that aside from hitting and fielding, Jeter’s just as good a baseball player as A-Rod. Snark if you will, but I stand by what I said. Thank you for the spelling lesson. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/28 "2010-01-15T22:33:26Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Not even if he did contribute more, and does deserve it? Well…what are you saying again? That Adam Everett contributes more than HanRam and deserves the HoF? In 200 fewer games Ramirez has posted a WAR of 25.5, versus 9.0 for Everett. For his entire CAREER. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/29 "2010-01-15T22:43:57Z")
Yes, that Adam Everett deserves the Hall of Fame and is better than Hanley Ramirez. No, you brought up Adam Everett; the discussion was about Ozzie Smith. My point was that you’re saying “don’t even tell me X is more valuable than Y,” and I’m saying that sometimes an Ozzie Smith is more valuable than a whoever-else, and I don’t see why it should matter that the reason is defense, not hitting. The fact that your example was one that nobody anywhere would ever use makes your point a little hard to isolate. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/30 "2010-01-15T22:54:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Yes, that Adam Everett deserves the Hall of Fame and is better than Hanley Ramirez. > > No, you brought up Adam Everett; the discussion was about Ozzie Smith. My point was that you’re saying “don’t even tell me X is more valuable than Y,” and I’m saying that sometimes an Ozzie Smith is more valuable than a whoever-else, and I don’t see why it should matter that the reason is defense, not hitting. The fact that your example was one that nobody anywhere would ever use makes your point a little hard to isolate. Sure, Ozzie Smith’s composite is better than a lot of guys. If I implied otherwise, I apologize. What I was trying to say is that even when you take defense into account, his bat negated some of the runs he saved. Or specifically, negated so many that Dahlen or Trammell become fairly comparable when you also take batting into account. At any rate, I am perplexed at how people thought Smith was so much better that he got in on the first ballot and neither of the other two ever had a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/31 "2010-01-15T22:56:16Z")
Well, really, who knows what the hell was going on with Bill Dahlen. It was the 1890s; his double play partner may have been a dog. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/32 "2010-01-15T22:58:25Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > This link brings up a page that says [img.moonbuggy.org](http://img.moonbuggy.org). [Fixed](http://c2.api.ning.com/files/9OGnwofs-1I35rFwsuFwD6HATsZjzTW*EbCA1673Ilq6bwo0lzsLfcIAvwncXop9leD0nMA0Rf9Mh3-IGiIUMu6OQbIxIfXm/gtfo4.jpg)? ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/33 "2010-01-15T22:59:46Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > [Fixed](http://c2.api.ning.com/files/9OGnwofs-1I35rFwsuFwD6HATsZjzTW*EbCA1673Ilq6bwo0lzsLfcIAvwncXop9leD0nMA0Rf9Mh3-IGiIUMu6OQbIxIfXm/gtfo4.jpg)? I see the image and caption now, but I’m not getting it in context. Are kicking me off the building because I think Ozzie was a great shortstop? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/34 "2010-01-15T23:05:10Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > I see the image and caption now, but I’m not getting it in context. Are kicking me off the building because I think Ozzie was a great shortstop? No. You’re kicked in effigy because you said he was often spoken of as being the greatest shortstop ever. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/35 "2010-01-15T23:07:47Z")
Ahh, ok. Can’t help that I’ve heard it, but it’s possible I’m thinking of hearing greatest _defensive_ shortstop ever. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/36 "2010-01-15T23:09:57Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > Ahh, ok. Can’t help that I’ve heard it, but it’s possible I’m thinking of hearing greatest _defensive_ shortstop ever. That may very well be, but a piece of bread isn’t a sammitch. ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/37 "2010-01-15T23:24:50Z")
While I believe that Trammell (I’m leaving Dehlen out of this because other then looking up his stats I know next to nothing about him.) is a better offensive player. His offensive stats aren’t superior enough to Smith’s to overcome the relative defensive inferiority. IMHO ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/38 "2010-01-16T03:26:47Z")
You know what comes to mind when I think of Derek Jeter? All those times he went sailing across the infield chasing balls in the playoffs (into the stands, the flip to Posada from the first-base line), and then all those times a ground ball not hit immediately at him skipped harmlessly through the infield for a base hit. As much as it pains me to say it, Ozzie’s bat probably disqualifies him from this discussion even in spite of his defense. It’s got to be Ripken. Without Cal playing short, guys like A-Rod, Jeter, Garciaparra and even Tejada don’t get a shot to play shortstop, because Cal changed the idea of what a shortstop is supposed to be by having a good bat, solid defense and not being, well, short. Without Ripken, we’d have 30 David Ecksteins playing shortstop (OK, 29 David Ecksteins and Omar Vizquel.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/39 "2010-01-16T04:57:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That is ordered by vote total. Wagner was unanimous, IIRC. So at the time the consensus was that Ripken was #2. Note that this was held halfway through the 2008 season, so Jeter has added to his credentials since. With polling now enabled, it might be a good time to revisit the idea. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037/40 "2010-01-16T07:11:44Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You can feel (and I mean that word literally) however you like about Derek Jeter, but you appear to be unaware of how pedestrian his production has been in the context of the all-time greatest. Alex Rodriguez is going to retire as like the fourth or fifth best player in the history of the game. How far down does Jeter have to be on the list for you to have to acknowledge that nobody’s treating him like anything at all other than exactly what he is? He’s a great singles and doubles guy who gets on base enough and slugs .450, and is a career liability with his glove at an essential defensive position. He’s led the league in hits once, runs once, and plate appearances a couple of times, and nothing else. > > He’s hit 20 homers three times. When A-Rod hit 30 last year, it was only the third time in 10 seasons that he _didn’t_ hit 40. > > Jeter’s average is only 10 points higher, and A-Rod still has a higher on-base. There is literally nothing that Jeter can do that Rodriguez doesn’t do better, except hit singles, and even in that he can only barely claim the edge. > > Rodriguez’ career WAR is over 99. Jeter’s is under 69; right behind Luke Appling and Barry Larkin. Far inferior, oh hell yes he is, and so is everybody else who isn’t the Flying Dutchman. I certainly don’t disagree with your rankings, I merely get hypersensitive about the disdain that Jeter causes among the sabermetric crowd. It’s as if his teams manage to win despite him, and that attitude rankles this Yankee fan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-best-shortstop/525037.md?page=3)