Second-generation Wiccans

I have to say I’m bloody impressed that someone remembered my religious affiliation.

We actually do know a fair amount about the ritual practices of the ancient Egyptians – they wrote every damn thing down they could, including on the walls of temples (many temples are illustrated with appropriate practice for the rooms; several incense recipes were also recorded – though we’re not sure what all of the components are in some cases). What we don’t know about are the sorts of practices ordinary people did in their homes – which means that moderns trying to do roughly the same thing strip down what we can puzzle out about the temple rituals and fake it from there, which may or may not be a good guess at all. (And that’s without getting into the endless pissing matches about what parts of what we know of ancient practice are essential and how many of them are bound to the time, what level of authenticity is appropriate, what should be used to patch the gaps …)

At the other extreme, Celtic recons are pretty much screwed, because their religious types figured that the best way to keep religious practice sacred was to never write down any of it. The closest we have to records of Celtic practice was written down by monks who were interested in local folklore. My boyfriend (who has CR leanings) doesn’t believe reconstruction is actually possible, because there’s too much “gotta make some shit up to fill in the knowledge gap” involved.

Responding to fetus: The problem with “could call yourself Wiccan if you wanted to” is a fairly current and active one in the relevant communities. “Wicca”, strictly speaking, has to do with initiatory lineage from Gardner and the training that comes with it; a lot of the people who have that history are extremely frustrated with the loss of the term to some form of generic neo-paganism that doesn’t touch on the essentials of their religion. A lot of the people who came to Wicca from book learning or eclectic groups are offended by the strict meaning, because they feel it’s an attempt to take their religion away from them. This is sort of one of the standing wave pissing matches that occasionally one comes across. (I am getting more inclined to stricter definition as time goes by as I’ve gotten more familiar with religious witchcraft that is not descended from Gardner at all.)

One of the big differences between many of the modern pagan religions and a mainstream interpretation of what ‘religion’ means is that they are, like most tribal religions, orthopraxic, not orthodoxic: for the most part, correct belief is not a big deal. Correct behaviour – doing the right rituals/ceremonies/prayers, behaving according to community/tribal standards, etc. – is the big deal. This means that you’ll get a lot of pagans, even of the same religion, spouting off about a huge variety of different beliefs, which can lead to an impression that anything goes – the actual practice stuff doesn’t turn up when people are nattering on on message boards.

Some friends of mine are heathens and are raising their kids to be heathens; their oldest is 13 now, and so far is still firmly in the Asatru camp. Unfortunately, one of the things those two teach the young’uns is that Christians are stupid, evil, and the enemy, but I think the kids are smart enough to see that for what it is as they get older; heck, their pseudo-uncle is a Methodist and is neither stupid nor evil, and pseudo-aunt is an Asatru who doesn’t share their parents’ contempt for Jesus-folk. Nor do I, but I’m only a baby heathen, so I’m not sure how much weight my opinion carries with them.

For serious pagans, research and critical study are damn near mandatory, just like in anything else; fluffy bunny pagans such as Winston Smith describes in post #5 seem to get all their information from Buffy the Vampire Slayer or (worse) Silver Ravenwolf and various other Llewellyn Press publications.

Here’s a good basic explanation of paganism, with lots of links and stuff.

The pagans I’ve met worship gods such as Athena, Loki, Dionysus, Poseidon, and Odin.

If we agree that Christianity in general is as old as the belief in Jesus Christ as savior, I think we should agree that paganism in general is as old as the belief in immortal deities as having specific powers and desiring/being worthy of prayer/sacrifice.

Clearly, though, I’m using different rationale than WhyNot. I don’t figure that whether or not there is an unbroken line is really relevant to the practice of paganism as we know it today: for one thing, the presence of the same Gods is good enough for me to call it “old”; and for another, surely the gods worshipped everywhere from Aztec Mexico and Inca Peru to aboriginal Papua New Guinea to third-world Africa up to a pretty late stage in the game count. What would you call a modern American who worships Xiuhtecuhtli? I would call them a pagan. If you wouldn’t, we might be talking about different things.

I also don’t consider the difference in methods of prayer to be enough to declare paganism a new phenomenon. Prayers change even in continuous religions; Judaism is still Judaism even though animal sacrifice, direct communication with God, and invading nations which worship other Gods for the purpose of converting them to Judaism–all practices once absolutely vital, even definitive, of the Jewish faith–are all but forgotten among even the most conservative and old-fashioned.

Interesting. I don’t know much about those particulars, so I’ll leave them for others to chew over if they feel the need.

Thanks for the reply, fetus. We’re looking at this from different points of view and while I see where you’re coming from I disagree with your conclusion. I don’t wish to hijack this thread but I do appreciate your answer.

Marc

I think yours is a social definition, using “pagan” where I’d use “neopagan”, while I was sticking to a religious definition. Fair enough.

[Devil’s (Not SnakesCatLady’s Devil, of course!) Advocate] So are Christianity, Judaism and Islam the same religion? They all worship the same god.

I’m not always even convinced that say, Persephone today can be considered the same goddess she was to the Ancient Greeks. There’s a hell of a lot of re-writing of myths to substantially change the stories - sometimes they twist so far as to become new characters. Did you know that Persephone enjoyed a willing tryst with Hades? She demanded that he act out a seduction for her, but it was really her intent to run away from Demeter all along. No, you say? Persephone was kidnapped and raped by Hades? I’ve seen Women’s Mystery schools who teach the story both ways. Which is closer to the Greek version? Probably the rape one, which teaches young women to obey their mothers or Something Bad will happen to them. Which one teaches young women that their sexuality is a powerful tool that can be used for good or evil, and that mothers need to let their daughters go to grow into independant and sexually fufilled women? The new one, which is why it was invented - it fufills a spiritual need we have today that maybe wasn’t so important in Ancient Greece. So is the Persephone worshipped today the same as the Persephone of the Greeks? This gets into huge theological debates about who or what gods and goddesses are, if and how they are influenced by us humans and the nature of the universe in general.

Well, they certainly self-identify as pagan enough to come to pagan/neopagan gatherings. Then again, so do Voudun, Santeria, Ifa, Church of All Worlds and Discordians. So socially, I guess we can group them in with pagans or neopagans.

I guess here’s where I distinguish *pagan from neopagan: pagans are indigenous or unbroken-line polytheists who aren’t one of the Big Five: Christian, Judaism, Islam, Buddhist or Hindu. Possibly also Shinto. Neopagans are post-nineteenth century poly or omnitheists in Gardnerian influenced or reconstructionist paths. Except when they aren’t. :smiley: Problem is, lots of people, especially Ceremonial Magicians, but even some Asatru or Reconstructionist Greek, HATE the terms pagan and neopagan. It’s just one of those issue where you’ll get a different answer from everyone you talk to.

*though to use the words in a different way, “pagan” refers to the worshippers outside of Rome, “heathens” are found only in Northern Europe, and the rest of us are just…something else…

Good point. Two ways to answer that:

  1. Well, yes, in the same way that paganism is considered one religion. Lots of different flavors, of course, but where’s the dividing line really? What’s so different between “believes that the messiah will come” and “believes that the messiah has come”? The most liberal (in how they view the need to follow their customs) of the observant Jews and Christians are different only in this regard, really. Why not put the line at “wears a yarmulke” or at “believes in a patron saint”? Having grown up Jewish and around a lot of Christians I don’t see a big diff. on each side of the “messiah line”.

  2. Actually, they don’t worship the same god. The Jewish god is one entity, vengeful at that, who hates the very thought of anyone feeling more than human interest in anyone/anything other than Him. The Christian god is part of a Trinity of three demigods who all split their divine importance three ways, plus there’s a Satan who’s also an all-powerful god. So one religion worships a single omniscient, omnipresent God, while the other believes in four powerful Gods (plus many holy mortals in Catholicism’s case), three of which are in a constant battle with the other. They’re not the same religion because they don’t worship the same God.

I can’t tie this in very well with paganism, frankly, and I don’t know much about Islam. I can see where you could argue based on #2 that the neopagan’s Bacchus is not the same god as Roman Bacchus. I think it’s different, though; neopagans seem to be trying to be faithful to the original, while Jews, Christians and Muslims all have strongly and deliberately diverging beliefs as to who/what God is. If you sit an ancient Roman down next to a 21st century pagan and ask them both who Bacchus is, I think they’ll give you roughly equivalent answers, while if you sit a Christian and a Muslim down next to each other and ask them both who God is you may get two very different answers.

And here we run into our definitive problem once again: “pagan” really means “everyone who doesn’t believe in a mainstream religion currently accepted in large part by developed society”. Everyone who isn’t one of the Big Six (yeah, Shinto counts if you ask me) is a pagan, which means they’re all…the same religion? Not really, but for linguistic purposes they are: they share outsider status and probably a distrust of the mainstream, probably hang out together and maybe even worship together, even if one worships the Aztec snake god, one the Souix rain god (I’m making these up, BTW), one Thor, and one the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It’s problematic to call them all the same thing, but it’s also convenient. Yet another problem we probably won’t solve in the next decade, to put it mildly.

How about completely different beliefs, different structures and practices, different ethics, different gods, different origins …

Paganism is not a religion, and it never has been. It’s a catchall term for “not mainstream religion” from the time of the Roman empire (when it meant, originally, ‘not practicing the religion of Rome, or at least not doing it properly’; when the religion of Rome became Christianity, the targetting shifted).

The people I’ve encountered who think that paganism is ‘a’ religion generally come in two camps – the ones who think that anything outside of their sect of usually-Christianity is devil-worshipping paganism, and the ones who think that all pagan religions are basically some form of Wiccan-derived eclectic practice. We recons spend a lot of time fighting the ignorance of the latter group. (“No, we don’t cast circles.” “No, we don’t follow ‘If it harms none, do as you will.’” “No, this religion isn’t basically duotheistic.” “No, those are distinct gods with Their own individual agendas, not theophanies of Teh Goddess.” “No, my religion is not earth-centered.” “No, I don’t celebrate the wheel of the year.” “No, Samhain is not one of my holidays.”)

Haven’t run into many neopagans who want to argue that Kali is just misunderstood and never liked those blood sacrifices anyway, I gather.

My current favorite complete WTF from published material is “Het-Her’s two horns contain the solar disk, which represents the New Moon”.

Don’t get me wrong – there are people out there who do their research, at least about the nature and desires of the gods. Unfortunately, some of them wind up getting books like the one I just quoted and going off on weird tangents, and others get hung up on emualting Graves and trying to turn everything into a maiden-mother-crone triple goddess, to the point of warping the facts to suit that image. Many are not trying to be true to original practice at all, even when they are dealing with the gods on terms similar to those used by the ancients – a fair number of pagan religions have roots in ceremonial magic or esoteric secret societies at some level, and their practices come from there, not from historical knowledge. And some are not dealing with those gods in the first place, such as traditional Wicca, in which the names of the gods are secret/sacred knowledge.

Heh.
Heh heh heh heh.
Bwaa-haaahaaa!

That just gets funnier every time I read it!

Ever sit at the same fire as an Astaru (German/Norse gods, fond of mead, fur, hammers and horns - often attract women of the fur bikini hanger-on genre) and a Dianic Wiccan (ultra-feminist, no men allowed, often radical lesbian man haters)? Oh, boy, that was a long night!

I got into a huge debate once with a very popular published (Wiccan) author who maintains that ALL Divine energy is Love and Creation. I asked her about Sekhmet, Kali, et al, and she told me I was “Too in [my] head and not enough in [my] heart.” :eek: Fie! Fie, stoopid mortal, or shall I call down the wrath of the Giant Kittycat to smite your silver ankh wearing ass?! How about some cancer, bitch? There’s uncontrolled creation for ya!

I suspect it will remain my favorite WTF for years, and not just because I’m devoted to Hetheru. I’ve never seen anything quite like it.

I consider it personally important to have a healthy respect for Sekhmet (in part because of Her strong mythological links to Hathor), and speaking from that position, I know in my heart that Sekhmet scares me. :wink: I am fully cognizant of the fact that Her tremendous medical knowledge and patronage comes of the dual insights that come from originating plagues and from knowing when things need to be cut out because they’re malignant. Whether that’s Love And Creation is sort of a perspective problem – and I can see the essence of Sekhmet in both the tumor and the surgeon’s knife.

Every religion, unfortunately, gets its share of hypocrites and people who just plain haven’t thought through the actions required by their system of beliefs. There are Christians who invoke Jesus’ name while breaking the Golden Rule, Jews who invoke God’s name while breaking Hillel’s rule of “that which is distasteful to you, do not do to your neighbor”, Buddhists and Hindus who invoke their religions (which preach nonviolence as an important part of the religion) as an excuse for violence, and so on and so forth. It would be more worth remarking on if there were any religion where none of its followers ever did anything like that.

Just because a religion doesn’t teach that non-believers are hellbound, doesn’t mean that parents in that religion won’t make an effort to keep their kids from leaving it. Judaism most definitely doesn’t teach that non-Jews are bound for any kind of hell. But there are many Jewish parents who are very concerned that their kids remain Jewish.

But most Jews, Christians, and Muslims would say that we all worship the same God. Most Jews, for example, would say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God as we do, and most Christians or Muslims would say that was an accurate characterization of their faith. This seems to me to be the reverse of the situation with pagans. Pagans say they worship different gods, and non-pagans want to say that all pagans worship the same god.

I never said it was. What I referred to was that people generally talk about pagans as one religious group, as you’ll see from my saying “the same way that paganism is considered one religion” and my linguistic discussion on same later in the post and in other posts.

Just so you know, I covered this too.

Again, I just want to make sure you know that I don’t consider paganism “a” religion and I’m not ignorant of any of the things you listed. I was being hypothetical and talking from the viewpoint of mainstream American religious folk.

No. I actually have no idea what you’re talking about. I only dabbled briefly, and must admit I’m not as knowledgeable as I could be about the whole thing.

I didn’t know any of the stuff you said about the books, secret societies, or sacred knowledge. Ignorance fought. Thanks!

Sure they would say it. But their ideas of who that God is are often pretty divergent.

Rereading, this is clearer to me now; I’m a little hair-trigger on the subject, I’m afraid, because it’s a bit of ignorance that will. Not. Die. Y’know?

Sorry about being overly snappish.

(But seriously, some of the stuff that gets published as pagan reference materials? Painful to anyone with basic knowledge, and only gets worse as one learns more folklore/mythology/archaeology. It feeds a sub-subculture of seething ignorance.

Someone who claims to believe in this shit should really not be writing books suggesting that people invite a Slavic spirit known in folklore to flay people alive to come live in their bathroom.)

Hey, I totally understand. I’ve been in your shoes quite a lot in this regard. I’d say we definitely have that hair-trigger reflex to ignorance in common, although it’s focused on different knowledge bases.

But as Anne Neville noted, faith systems are by their nature prone to dumb shits (I’m paraphrasing :smiley: ). How many “No good Christian/Muslim believes that the Holocaust happened” books are out there? Enough to fuel the martyr culture, believe you me.

Absolutely. But by that standard, not all Jews or all Christians worship the same god, either. In fact, you could probably say that no two people worship the same god- everybody’s got slightly different ideas about what God or the gods might be like.

That they are, by their nature as groups of people. Any sufficiently large group of people is going to have some dumbshits and assholes.

Now that shows some promise for getting rid of the dumbshits :smiley: Maybe those people are trying to improve Wicca in a Darwinian way :wink:

The whole point of me saying it in the first place, IIRC, was that there are lots of ways to define these things, and lots of different places where you can draw a line and declare the people on each side a different religion. It seems we agree.