# Second Hand Smoke is too bad for you **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2006, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463 "2006-06-28T08:10:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/161 "2006-06-29T13:27:16Z")
**Poly** , I have to ask - did you read the surgeon general’s report (or at least its major conclucions) before analogizing this debate to homosexuality, abortion and so on? All those other issues are fought on the basis of perceived general harm or benefit to society. Secondhand smoke is _a direct public health issue_, with nearly 50,000 deaths a year in this country linked to secondhand smoke, from causes including heart disease and cancer. [QUOTE=Polycarp] The fight is not between smokers and non-smokers – even though that’s what one gets at first glance. _ **It’s between people with a laissez faire attitude and those who believe their preferred way to do or eschew things should be mandatory on all.** _ [/quote] I sense this view in more than a few smokers, who choose to see laws as a personal affront, instead of what they really are - a continuance of our history of protecting citizens from public health and workplace threats. Once upon a time, proposed legislation against child labor and horrible workplace conditions was considered an assault on personal liberties. Those laws are now accepted, as widespread public smoking bans will be in the future. And we will wonder how we tolerated smoky workplaces and public venues for so long. The surgeon general’s report addresses the claim (seen in studies financed by the tobacco industry) that bars and restaurants are in financial straits due to smoking bans. The claims have been refuted (there are studies accessible on PubMed demonstrating the continued health of the industry under bans, and I’ve linked to them in past threads). Anecdotes such as the one you related do not reflect current realities (Waiters and waitresses, incidentally, have some of the highest exposure rates known to secondhand smoke. Neither they nor the other people in bars (including service workers and deliverypeople) should be obliged to breathe in secondhand carcinogens and toxins. If there truly is a separate, ventilated area for smokers that keeps smoke away from the large majority non-smoking population, fine - if businesses want to provide it, there should be no objections from nonsmokers. The historic problem has been that such separate zoness do not contain smoke - it filters out into surrounding areas. The surgeon general’s report addressed this point as well. > [@](#): > > The point I am making here is pretty damn simple, and I’m surprised that nobody has hit on it yet: Whatever your stance on the smoking issue, you do not have the right to regulate the lives of others to insist they do what you choose to do, or refrain from what you choose not to do. A simple point, yes - but again, a false comparison is made if secondhand smoke is declared an issue akin to homosexuality etc. We have regulatory protections set up in our society to protect people from health and workplace hazards that “infringe on personal liberties”. If _you_ want to be consistent, speak out against mandatory vaccinations, requirements for filters for industry smokestacks, bans on hazardous machinery that amputates workers’ limbs and so on. We tolerate mere annoyances around us every day - screaming kids, blaring cellphones and the like. We used to tolerate secondhand smoke when it was just considered an annoyance. Now we know better - it kills people. The number of people exposed to secondhand smoke in the U.S. has dropped in the last 20 years or so from close to 90% to approximately 40%. We’re going to work to keep that number dropping, through appropriate laws and education. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/162 "2006-06-29T13:32:26Z")
**Beer** - you used to be a pretty fair debater, but you’ve lost it. Even for the Pit, you’re behaving like a jerk. An evasive one, at that. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/163 "2006-06-29T13:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] II’m not pushing for more legislation, but I think the legislation makes sense. I think it is perfectly in line with other safety measures that protect employees no matter their wishes. Just as we have to harass our employees to wear hearing protection and safety glasses no matter if they hate it. [/quote] Well, only 30% of American workers are working in buildings where smoking is permitted. So, you’re well on your way. > [@](#): > > The gun analogy I think is fairly apt. No, someone isn’t shooting me in the heart, but I’m getting winged on occasion. I don’t want to take away anyone’s guns, I just want to stop getting winged. And just as I think it’s the responsibility of the person with the gun to stop shooting at me, it’s the responsibility of the person smoking to stop winging me. Or, maybe it’s your responsibility to stop walking in front of the firing line at the range. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/164 "2006-06-29T13:34:59Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] **Beer** - you used to be a pretty fair debater, but you’ve lost it. Even for the Pit, you’re behaving like a jerk. An evasive one, at that. [/QUOTE] Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/165 "2006-06-29T13:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mince] Of course. But can’t you see that I now have limitations where I can drink (because I don’t want to be affected by SHS), when smokers do not. [/QUOTE] So it’s a self-imposed limitation. You’re still allowed to go there if you want to. You choose not to. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/166 "2006-06-29T13:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] Or, maybe it’s your responsibility to stop walking in front of the firing line at the range. [/QUOTE] The sidewalk is akin to a gun range? The parking lot? And you wonder why you’ll eventually talk people into banning the behavior entirely. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/167 "2006-06-29T13:57:53Z")
What strikes me about the Surgeon General’s report is that it addresses SHS **in the home** and **in the workplace**. SHS is an known carcinogen and toxin **in the home** and **in the workplace** , and yet the smoking-ban Nazis continually complain that even small amounts of smoke anywhere, even 500 feet away, outdoors, is killing them. Honestly, people, if even the tiniest wiff of diluted smoke is killing you, then go ahead and die already. There are those of us who deliberately concentrate and inhale the stuff on a regular basis and we’re still alive. Consider it a sort of Darwinism. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/168 "2006-06-29T14:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The sidewalk is akin to a gun range? The parking lot? And you wonder why you’ll eventually talk people into banning the behavior entirely. [/QUOTE] Just much smoke are you running into in the parking lot and on the sidewalk? I live in a pretty small town, so it ain’t like the sidewalks are packed with people like Chicago, or any other large city, but I do have occasion to visit places like that. And really don’t remember these expansive clouds of noxious gas that you seem to be saying are so harmful and _forcing you to smoke_. The few particles of tobacco smoke you’re gonna inhale in the middle of a crowded city probably ain’t any worse for you than the tons of automobile exhaust. Besides, of you’re behind a smoker on the sidewalk, it’s really pretty easy to move away from him - speed up and get past him, stop for about 5 seconds and let him get farther ahead of you, or cross the damn street. And like **tdn** notes, the Surgeon General’s report is only about passive smoking in the home and workplace. It says nothing about outdoor air quality. Or even enclosed spaces where one isn’t spending a large portion of their week. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/169 "2006-06-29T15:02:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mince] \ Take my drinking business elsewhere? Sure. If you can point me to a bar in Myhometown, IL that bans smoking, I would, with earnest, take my business there. But they don’t exist. Not one. So my choices are a limited to staying away from bars altogether or risking detrimental effects to my health.\* \ \*Yes, I am aware of the irony that drinking alcohol could (and does) also cause health problems—but only to myself. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The cancer rate in alcoholics is ten times higher than that in the general population. > > Four drinks (60 grams ethanol) per day is associated with a 21% increased risk of prostate cancer. > > Every 10 grams (10 milliliters – just under “one drink”) per day of ethanol consumption is associated with a 9% increase in breast cancer. > > Animal experiments indicate that ethanol itself does not cause cancer, but that acetaldehyde (the first metabolic product of ethanol) is toxic, mutagenic and carcinogenic (cancer-causing). Acetaldehyde interferes with DNA repair by DNA-repair enzyme blockage and by binding to DNA and proteins [ALCOHOL & ALCOHOLISM; Poschl,G; 39(3):155-165 (2004)]. Alcohol induction of CYP2E1 enzyme in the liver leads to production of many carcinogens. Nearly half of all cancers in the oral cavity, pharynx, larynx and esophagus have been attributed to alcohol [same reference]. > > Ethanol is known to reduce T-cells (Thymus-derived lymphocytes) – suppression of the immune system that can increase cancer incidence and decrease resistance to infectious diseases [IMMUNOPHARMACOLOGY 15:85-94 (1988)]. > > ([link](http://www.benbest.com/health/alcohol.html). So your argument is what? You want the freedom to go to a public location to damage your body but no one else can help? Such bullshit. Personally myself I think they should outlaw smoking AND alcohol. Sure. My smoke might get into your tender, weak lungs and cause health issues but there is a better chance of you having one extra drink and, with impared judgement, get into a car and run my ass over. Why should I have to increase my risks on the road because of you need to drink alcohol? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/170 "2006-06-29T15:03:29Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] Just much smoke are you running into in the parking lot and on the sidewalk? [/QUOTE] How much is too much? You said it was a couple of molecules creeping into my office. I get a lungful of cigarette smoke a couple of times a day from places I can’t avoid. I’m not looking for additional legislation. I don’t like breathing in your shitty smoke, but it’s not ruining my life. I do think additional legislation is coming, and I also think that smokers have brought it on themselves. Smoking should not be illegal, just as having a shooting a gun should not be illegal. Harming someone with either better have a damned good reason behind it. Is the level I encounter every day harming me? I don’t know _and neither do you_. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/171 "2006-06-29T15:10:36Z")
[QUOTE=Seven] So your argument is what? You want the freedom to go to a public location to damage your body but no one else can help? Such bullshit. [/QUOTE] Consider me boggled that you don’t see a difference between choosing to do things to yourself and having people do them to you without your permission. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/172 "2006-06-29T15:11:14Z")
So, you admit your fears aren’t rational. That’s an _excellent_ reason to curb the liberties of 300,000,000 people. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/173 "2006-06-29T15:13:58Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] So, you admit your fears aren’t rational. That’s an _excellent_ reason to curb the liberties of 300,000,000 people. [/QUOTE] Now who are you talking to and what argument are you inventing? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/174 "2006-06-29T15:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I do think additional legislation is coming, and I also think that smokers have brought it on themselves. [/QUOTE] Taken the norm as a ban on the workplace and indoor public places. What else do you think is needed? What are smokers doing that is bringing it on themselves? Are you saying that you want a total ban on smoking apart from a persons private property? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/175 "2006-06-29T15:23:21Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Are you saying that you want a total ban on smoking apart from a persons private property? [/QUOTE] > [@me](#): > > I’m not looking for additional legislation. I don’t like breathing in your shitty smoke, but it’s not ruining my life. How much plainer can I be? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/176 "2006-06-29T15:29:21Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] So, you admit your fears aren’t rational. That’s an _excellent_ reason to curb the liberties of 300,000,000 people. [/QUOTE] No- **50,000 Deaths** per year- those are excellent reasons to curb the liberties of any number of people. Smoke if you want- just so as \*no \* non-smoker has to breathe it. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/177 "2006-06-29T15:31:12Z")
Yeah but you’re saying that more legislation is coming and that smokers have brought it on themselves. Should they be allowed smoke on the street while walking in front of you? If not how are you going to stop them without laws? Are they annoying you at the doors of buildings? How are you going to stop them without laws. If you don’t want any more laws how are you going to stop people doing something that legally they are perfectly entitled to do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/178 "2006-06-29T16:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Yeah but you’re saying that more legislation is coming and that smokers have brought it on themselves. [/QUOTE] I believe it. You said “given workplace laws.” Well, we don’t have smokefree workplaces in most of the US. That’s the sort of law that I think is coming. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/179 "2006-06-29T16:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] So it’s a self-imposed limitation. You’re still allowed to go there if you want to. You choose not to. [/QUOTE] Exactly. There is a bar near my house that plays music extremely loudly. My husband and I went there once, couldn’t have a conversation, and left with our ears ringing. It was very unpleasant & probably wasn’t too good for our hearing. So, guess what? We have never gone back there! We didn’t demand that they turn down the music because we think we have the right to have that bar provide the atmosphere we want. The guy who owns the bar has a clientele that goes there because they like it…if we don’t, we need to find something else to do. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463/180 "2006-06-29T16:07:13Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] I believe it. You said “given workplace laws.” Well, we don’t have smokefree workplaces in most of the US. That’s the sort of law that I think is coming. [/QUOTE] Cool, got my wires crosses then. We have the law in Ireland and I hear about CA and NY a lot when people talk about this with regard to the states. This smoker has no problem with workplace and indoor public area bans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-hand-smoke-is-too-bad-for-you/362463.md?page=10)