# Second Republican presidential candidates' debate tonight
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 15, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243 "2007-05-15T22:28:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/41 "2007-05-16T15:25:16Z")
I disagree. If you think any of them have a policy, then lets see what it is, and if it really boils down to more than “we need to do whatever seems tough and manly at the moment.” McCain isn’t just clear, he’s being more realistic: it’s not likely that Iraq is going to turn into one big happy family: most of the sides are just waiting for us to get out of the way so they can really go after each other. So we stay. Otherwise Iraq implodes. The rest of the Republicans de facto military tough roar, kill terrorists yay! but where is the acknowledgment of where that policy leads, and to what end?
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### Author:  [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/42 "2007-05-16T15:25:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> What is Giuliani’s plan?
_shrug_ Hell if I know. Go to his website.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/43 "2007-05-16T15:25:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes]
What is Giuliani’s plan?
[/QUOTE]
Kill Don Barzini.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/44 "2007-05-16T15:43:41Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene]
_shrug_ Hell if I know. Go to his website.
[/QUOTE]
I did. [This](http://www.joinrudy2008.com/index.php?section=2) is the entirety of what he has to say about his Iraq policy:
> [@](#):
>
> Like all Americans, Rudy Giuliani prays for the success of our troops in Iraq and their safe return home. But he believes setting an artificial timetable for withdrawal from Iraq now would be a terrible mistake, because it would only embolden our enemies. Iraq is only one front in the larger war on terror, and failure there would lead to a broader and bloodier regional conflict in the near future. Building an accountable Iraq will assist in reducing the threat of terrorism.
I don’t see a plan in there unless “praying for the troops” counts as a plan.
My question was asked in all seriousness. I have yet to hear the Mayor articulate any genuine policy or plan for Iraq other than the kinds of platitudes and mindless support of Bush exemplified above.
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### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/45 "2007-05-16T15:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene]
_shrug_ Hell if I know. Go to his website.
[/QUOTE]
So how exactly did you know that it was a “gross characterization” then, hunh?
Here’s what his website, by the way has to say about Iraq:
> [@](#):
>
> Like all Americans, Rudy Giuliani prays for the success of our troops in Iraq and their safe return home. But he believes setting an artificial timetable for withdrawal from Iraq now would be a terrible mistake, because it would only embolden our enemies. Iraq is only one front in the larger war on terror, and failure there would lead to a broader and bloodier regional conflict in the near future. Building an accountable Iraq will assist in reducing the threat of terrorism.
That’s it. He opposes, essentially, saying anything about what we’re going to do, because tough guys don’t do that, or something. Failure there is bad. What’s failure? Hell if I know! Tough guys don’t have to worry about stuff like that. All we know is that other people need to be held accountable! Terrorism is reduced, somehow!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/46 "2007-05-16T15:50:55Z")
I didn’t watch, but it sounds like there were some entertaining moments. You can read a full transcript at [Republican Presidential Debate in South Carolina - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/us/politics/16repubs-text.html)
Romney said the Guantanamo prison should be doubled in size, which is horrifying. At least Bush acts like it’s a regretful necessity.
Meanwhile, what the hell is this with Giuliani and Paul?
> [@Ron Paul](#):
>
> Have you ever read the reasons they attacked us? They attack us because we’ve been over there; we’ve been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We’ve been in the Middle East – I think Reagan was right.
>
> We don’t understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics. So right now we’re building an embassy in Iraq that’s bigger than the Vatican. We’re building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting. We need to look at what we do from the perspective of what would happen if somebody else did it to us.
Rudy later replied that drawing a connection between the Gulf War and September 11 was “absurd,” and he’d never heard anyone say it before. What kind of mutants applauded Giuliani on that one?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/47 "2007-05-16T15:58:38Z")
I’d also like to know what he means by “an accountable Iraq.” Accountable in what way? Bush has said things like that too (like how our support for the Iraqi government “is not open-ended”). They’re saying we won’t leave Iraq until we “win,” then they define victory in terms of stablizing the country, then they say that our staying is _contingent_ on the stabalization of the country. It’s an utter contradiction.
We have to stay because the country is too unstable!
If the country doesn’t stabalize, we’re leaving!
But either way, we’re staying!
How are intelligent conservatives able to reconcile this kind of gibberish and make it sound coherent to themselves?
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/48 "2007-05-16T16:27:07Z")
[QUOTE=Apos]
Sullivan claims/points out that Guiliani flat out lied about what Ron Paul said in order to score cheap “toughness” points: anyone disagree? Sullivan alleges that it was the FoxNews questioner that ratcheted up the rhetoric, and Paul only generally spoke about avoiding the problem of blowback.
I also think Sullivan was pretty dead on when he noted that of all these guys, only McCain and Paul have an actual policy on Iraq: Paul wants us to leave, McCain basically wants us to stay forever. The rest have just a sort of mushy “fighting makes us look tough” stance with no commitment to any specific policy or acknowledgment of what the goals are.
[/QUOTE]
Sullivan was exactly right. It was the questioner (and then Rudy) who characterized Paul’s stance as “inviting 9/11”. I only wish Paul had retorted that if Giuliani had a problem with it, he should ask the guy who said it. Also, when the questioner asked Paul if he really wanted to “disband the Department Homeland Security in the middle of a war”, I wish he had responded, “No, just the department, not the security.”
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### Author:  [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/49 "2007-05-16T17:28:22Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23]
Romney said the Guantanamo prison should be doubled in size, which is horrifying. At least Bush acts like it’s a regretful necessity.
[/quote]
Cite?
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/50 "2007-05-16T17:31:20Z")
The sketchiness of Giuliani’s policy prescriptions (if they’re even deserving of that moniker) on his website - not just about Iraq, but about _everything_ - is truly mindboggling, for a guy whose candidacy is being taken seriously.
National security is his signature issue - and he doesn’t know jack shit about it, as far as anyone can tell.
And this guy is the GOP _frontrunner_.
The GOP base boils down to Og looking for someone to smash, and not being particular about whom.
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### Author:  [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/51 "2007-05-16T17:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene]
I think this is a gross mischaracterization of an extremely complex issue. “Leave now” and “stay forever” are the easiest stances to summarize in a one-phrase soundbite, sure. But if you actually think that means that the other eight candidates don’t have a policy on Iraq, that’s ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]
Here’s what [Sulllivan said in full](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/palmetto_pundit.html#more):
> [@](#):
>
> The Republicans, we learned, have absolutely no idea what to do about Iraq. The only two people with coherent positions were McCain and Paul. McCain supports a war without end, a permanent occupation of Iraq, regardless of whether a national government there can exist in the foreseeable future. He’s for empire, as are Cheney and Bush. I can see no reason for him to withdraw any troops in the next five years. The notion that a national Iraqi government, composed of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds, will be able to defend itself and take the side of the West in the war in Jihadist terror is simply ludicrous in the imaginable future. That much we surely know by now. So empire is the new Republican consensus: an empire built entirely for security reasons, and an empire which somehow manages to make us less secure. Paul, in contrast, had the balls to state the classic Republican position, and to defend it in the wake of 9/11. Man, that guy has some brass cojones. He even invoked Ronald Reagan in urging withdrawal from the irrationality of Arab politics. Other than McCain and Paul, the others were risible in their soundbites and faux toughness.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/52 "2007-05-16T17:47:46Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy]
Cite?
[/QUOTE]
“Some people have said, we ought to close Guantanamo. My view is, we ought to double Guantanamo.”
[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/us/politics/16repubs-text.html?pagewanted=17](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/us/politics/16repubs-text.html?pagewanted=17)
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### Author:  [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/53 "2007-05-16T18:03:57Z")
No, I meant about Bush having any genuine regrets about Gitmo’s function. I didn’t doubt Romney’s position for a second.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/54 "2007-05-16T18:10:32Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy]
No, I meant about Bush having any genuine regrets about Gitmo’s function.
[/QUOTE]
I used the word “acts” for a reason. I do think he’s recently said he would like to look at other options, perhaps because Gates wants it closed, though he is obviously in no hurry to do so. He wouldn’t say “double it.”
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### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/55 "2007-05-16T20:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=fiddlesticks]
Yep. Fred Thompson is probably enjoying himself right now. The longer he can sit on the sidelines and not have to open his mouth and actually articulate a position the better he looks against the rest of those mooks. At some point after the Republican establishment realizes that none of these guys are electable, he can ride in on a white horse and present himself as the true heir to the Reagan Throne. He was an actor after all…
[/QUOTE]
Could also be Jeb Bush doing that. :: shudders ::
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### Author:  [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/56 "2007-05-16T20:30:57Z")
[QUOTE=ShibbOleth]
Could also be Jeb Bush doing that. :: shudders ::
[/QUOTE]
Hmm…I don’t know. After the Schiavo fiasco, the 2000 election, and 8 years of having one Bush in office who obviously can’t lead the country, I think the American public has had enough of that particular dynasty.
It does make your skin crawl, though, doesn’t it?
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### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/57 "2007-05-16T20:47:04Z")
Apparently, Rudy has been a scholar all this time and we never knew:
> [@](#):
>
> Maybe because I’ve been studying Islamic terrorism since the 1970s I have a better understanding of this.
Somehow I don’t recall my mayor mentioning this line of study, but whatever.
> **[Rudy on Ron Paul, Five Minutes Ago](https://reason.com/2007/05/16/rudy-on-ron-paul-five-minutes/)**
>
> Just got off a Rudy Giuliani conference call where, cementing my status as America's Luckiest Journalist, I wasn't selected to…
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-republican-presidential-candidates-debate-tonight/404243/58 "2007-05-27T16:11:01Z")
And in other news, I’m running for President: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8613975#post8613975](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8613975#post8613975)
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