# "Second surge": WH planning to nearly double combat troops in Iraq by Christmas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139 "2007-05-22T21:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/1 "2007-05-22T21:51:51Z")
Story [here.](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/22/MNG7QPV65N1.DTL) > [@](#): > > The little-noticed second surge, designed to reinforce U.S. troops in Iraq, is being executed by sending more combat brigades and extending tours of duty for troops already there. > > The actions could boost the number of combat soldiers from 52,500 in early January to as many as 98,000 by the end of this year if the Pentagon overlaps arriving and departing combat brigades. > > Separately, when additional support troops are included in this second troop increase, the total number of U.S. troops in Iraq could increase from 162,000 now to more than 200,000 – a record-high number – by the end of the year. > > The numbers were arrived at by an analysis of deployment orders by Hearst Newspapers. > > “It doesn’t surprise me that they’re not talking about it,” said retired Army Maj. Gen. William Nash, a former U.S. commander of NATO troops in Bosnia, referring to the Bush administration. “I think they would be very happy not to have any more attention paid to this.” 😕 The first “surge” was announced by Bush in a televised national address. Why is this second surge being handled so quietly? Will it make any difference in Iraq? Will it make any difference in the U.S., WRT war-related politics? Can they **do** this without Congressional approval? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/2 "2007-05-22T22:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The first “surge” was announced by Bush in a televised national address. Why is this second surge being handled so quietly? [/QUOTE] Well…I don’t know how quitely its being handled, as its on most of the major news web sites. As for why Bush didn’t televise it…well, why do you think he should? He’s already said he plans to do this…telling us again really serves no purpose. IMHO of course. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Will it make any difference in Iraq? [/QUOTE] Too little too late IMHO…FWIW. This really DOES resemble the stupid slow build up we had in Vietnam. These folks are fucking morons…and WE, the people are fucking morons (collectively) for re-electing this putz. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Will it make any difference in the U.S., WRT war-related politics? [/QUOTE] Depends I guess on the eventual outcome. I doubt it will make much short term differences unless the wheels start coming off soon. If things stay as they have been…no, I don’t see it making a huge difference right now. LONG term…who knows? [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Can they do this without Congressional approval? [/QUOTE] AFAIK, he doesn’t need Congressional approval to move more troops into Iraq. The only hammer they had over his head was on the budget thing…and they caved in on that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/3 "2007-05-22T22:17:15Z")
Wow! A whole post by **xt** I can’t find anything to disagree with. You alright my man? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/4 "2007-05-22T22:19:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Can they **do** this without Congressional approval? [/QUOTE] As long as they can pay for it, why not? Did the AUMF dictate any troop level limitations? ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/5 "2007-05-22T22:19:50Z")
Does this mean the surge didn’t work? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/6 "2007-05-22T22:21:50Z")
“And I went down to the demonstration To get my fair share of abuse…” - _You Can’t Always Get What You Want_ some anonymous British band, late 60’s CYA there. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/7 "2007-05-22T22:21:55Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] Does this mean the surge didn’t work? [/QUOTE] You are hateful! You know how much spraying pepsi out of your nose hurts?!? [QUOTE=RedFury] You alright my man? [/QUOTE] 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/8 "2007-05-22T22:26:16Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Wow! A whole post by **xt** I can’t find anything to disagree with… [/QUOTE] He’s coming along nicely, as we gently guide him from the path of political error. I credit your good-natured and soothing approach. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/9 "2007-05-22T22:34:24Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] The only hammer they had over his head was on the budget thing…and they caved in on that. -XT [/QUOTE] In other words, the Democrats recognized that GW is too stubborn to admit failure and with regard to Iraq they are in the minority in the senate. If the Democrats in the senate were as mindlessly obstinate as GW, there would be a big mess because they wouldn’t appropriate money for the Iraq war. In that case the administration would probably start using Dept. of Interior money, or the like, to keep the army supplied while it was being withdrawn and that’s unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/10 "2007-05-22T23:00:02Z")
The much esteemed Kevin Drum, of _Washington Monthly_, has a different take on this. > [@](#): > > …But the Pentagon routinely overlaps arriving and departing combat brigades. And when they do, it always produces a temporary increase of troop levels that lasts anywhere from a few weeks to a month or two. And since the surge has increased the base number of troops, it’s likely that the temporary increase this time around will be larger than past ones. > > In other words, I don’t quite get the fuss. This might be news if Powell had some evidence that the overlap period was going to be longer than usual — or, even worse, that troops currently in Iraq weren’t going to come home at all. But there’s nothing like that at all. It seems like it’s going to be the same kind of short-lived enlargement that we’ve seen several times in the past… > **[Home](https://washingtonmonthly.com/)** > > Sign up for the Washington Monthly newsletter and receive our best policy analysis in your inbox every weekday. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/11 "2007-05-23T00:02:30Z")
They are in a deep hole. If they can come up with a way to claim some sort of victory ,they can save face and the Republican Party. They need Osama (do they have him stashed ?) That would give him some points. If they can keep adding troops ,and quiet Iraq down, then they will be satisfied. To continue as is will be of no value. They are desperate and need something they can call good to happen. The easy answer is always …more troops. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/12 "2007-05-23T00:05:49Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] They need Osama (do they have him stashed ?) [/QUOTE] I think they would have played that card long before now if they had it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/13 "2007-05-23T00:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] If they can come up with a way to claim some sort of victory ,they can save face and the Republican Party. [/QUOTE] Well…yeah. Hell, if they can pull off some kind of victory I’ll eat GW’s shoes myself. The trick, of course, is to pull that off somehow. :dubious: [QUOTE=gonzomax] They need Osama (do they have him stashed ?) [/QUOTE] Certainly…they have him right next to the space aliens at Groom Lake. 😛 [QUOTE=gonzomax] If they can keep adding troops ,and quiet Iraq down, then they will be satisfied. [/QUOTE] Um…yeah. Well, if they keep adding troops and Iraq DOES quiet down, then they would have done the right thing. I’ll be satisfied myself. You won’t be? The trick, again, is to, having added more troops (at this late stage), actually accomplish something out of it. I’m not very sanguine about that prospect myself, mind. [QUOTE=gonzomax] They are desperate and need something they can call good to happen. [/QUOTE] You have a remarkable ability of stating the obvious. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/14 "2007-05-23T01:29:00Z")
Why is this second surge being handled so quietly? Will it make any difference in Iraq? Will it make any difference in the U.S., WRT war-related politics? Can they **do** this without Congressional approval? [/QUOTE] It’s not a surge unless the troop levels return to prior levels–it’s an escalation. To prevent the current surge from becoming an escalation, a further influx is necessary…it’s the same “surge” but you need new levels to continue to call it a surge. No. No. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/15 "2007-05-23T01:54:10Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Certainly…they have him right next to the space aliens at Groom Lake. 😛 [/QUOTE] Well, the aliens need to anal probe **somebody** ; why not Osama ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/16 "2007-05-23T03:16:16Z")
Well, if anyone needs a good anal probe, I agree that Osama is it. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/17 "2007-05-23T03:23:55Z")
You know, if we started an internet rumor that the aliens would be somewhere in particular at some specific time to grab people and probe their Nixons, you would have a small crowd of the weirdest people in the country. I have thoughts like that. Probably shouldn’t share them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/18 "2007-05-23T04:45:03Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] You know, if we started an internet rumor that the aliens would be somewhere in particular at some specific time to grab people and probe their Nixons, you would have a small crowd of the weirdest people in the country. [/QUOTE] And we could recruit them for the Dope! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/19 "2007-05-23T04:49:51Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] > [@](#): > > Can they **do** this without Congressional approval? Yes. [/QUOTE] In point of fact, it is being done with congressional approval. Congress approved the use of military force in Iraq and a large number of Democrats voted for it. Once military force is authorized it’s up to the executive department to determine how such force is used. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/20 "2007-05-23T04:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] In point of fact, it is being done with congressional approval. Congress approved the use of military force in Iraq and a large number of Democrats voted for it. Once military force is authorized it’s up to the executive department to determine how such force is used. [/QUOTE] Yup. I was going to mention this, but as I’m considered one of the ‘conservative’ dopers, I figured it would be better if someone else did it first. 😛 This is really one of the lessons we SHOULD have learned after Vietnam…its really difficult to extract a countries dick from the golf shoes once its been stepped on. -XT [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139.md?page=2)