# "Second surge": WH planning to nearly double combat troops in Iraq by Christmas **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139 "2007-05-22T21:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/21 "2007-05-23T04:54:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And we could recruit them for the Dope! 🙂 [/QUOTE] Sick, twisted and abnormal. You’re my kind of guy, **BG**. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/22 "2007-05-23T05:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > **David Simmons** : Once military force is authorized it’s up to the executive department to determine how such force is used. **David** , can they redeploy indefinitely or does it become “forced labor” somewhere around the fifth or sixth time? What is the current age limit for military service? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/23 "2007-05-23T05:25:35Z")
Dead. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/24 "2007-05-23T12:52:01Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] **David** , can they redeploy indefinitely or does it become “forced labor” somewhere around the fifth or sixth time? What is the current age limit for military service? [/QUOTE] Despite all recruiting poster blurbs, once you raise you hand and take the oath, or affirmation, you belong to the military. When required for purposes of national defense you can redeploy as needed. In fact you don’t necessarily need to even get a break in order to return to the US from the combat zone. The only reason for breaks from actual combat from time to time is because it is recognized that effectiveness goes to essentialy zero unless people get relief after a period of time. In other words such breaks are for the convenience and purposes of the government and not those of the individual. I really don’t know what the military age limits are now. For recruitment purposes it’s from 18 (or mayber even younger with parental permission) to 40 years. If this war is really a war for national survival the only reasonable way to provide the people needed to fight it is for a universal draft. But that’s not going to happen because I don’t think anyone has made the case that it actually is a war for national survival. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/25 "2007-05-23T13:05:27Z")
More detailed story with ‘former senior Administration official’ input. (Rummie, Wolfie, The Prince of Darkness?) [Bush may turn to UN in search for Iraq solution](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2085981,00.html) > [@](#): > > The Bush administration is developing plans to “internationalise” the Iraq crisis, including an expanded role for the United Nations, as a way of reducing overall US responsibility for Iraq’s future and limiting domestic political fallout from the war as the 2008 election season approaches. We break it you bought it. > [@](#): > > “Petraeus is brilliant. But he is the captain of a sinking ship,” said a former senior administration official who questioned whether Iraq’s divided political leadership could prevent a descent into chaos. “Iraq’s government is a mobile phone number that doesn’t answer. Iraq probably can’t be fixed.” > [@](#): > > The former official, who is familiar with administration thinking, predicted Mr Bush would instead ask Congress to agree a six-month extension of the surge after Gen Petraeus presented his “progress report” in early September. > > While insisting that no decision had yet been taken on an extension, the Pentagon announced last week that 35,000 soldiers from 10 army brigades had been told they could expect to be deployed to Iraq by the end of the year. That would enable the US to maintain heightened troop levels of about 160,000 soldiers through to next spring. > > According to an analysis published by Hearst Newspapers yesterday, the number of combat troops could almost double - to 98,000 - by the end of the year if arriving and departing combat brigades overlap. By the same calculation, the overall total including support troops could top 200,000 - an increase the report said amounted to a “second surge”. > [@](#): > > The US plan is expected to call for: > > · Expanded UN involvement in overseeing Iraq’s full transition to a “normal” democratic state, including an enhanced role for UN humanitarian agencies, the creation of a UN command, and possibly a Muslim-led peacekeeping force > > · Increased involvement in Iraq policymaking of UN security council permanent members, Japan and EU countries - in particular, the new conservative government of French president Nicolas Sarkozy > > · A bigger support role for regional countries, notably Sunni Arab Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia, and international institutions such as the World Bank and IMF > > · Renewed efforts to promote Iraqi government self-reliance, including attainment of national reconciliation “benchmarks” > > · The accelerated removal of US troops from frontline combat duties as the handover to Iraqi security forces, backed by an increased number of US advisers, proceeds. > [@](#): > > If all else failed, the US might seek an arrangement with Mr Sadr, if only to secure an orderly transition, the official claimed. “Cutting a deal with the Mahdi army is [vice-president] Dick Cheney’s deep fallback option.” > > Four years after bypassing a hostile security council, the Bush administration is expected to take the Iraq question back to the UN at the annual opening of the general assembly in September. > > “We foresee a very significant role for the UN and its agencies. The UN has great expertise that is badly needed in Iraq,” a senior US diplomat said at the weekend. The World Bank and IMF would also be asked to do more, he said. 'Yo! Evil-doers. A little help finding this here pony." ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/26 "2007-05-23T13:14:22Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] If this war is really a war for national survival the only reasonable way to provide the people needed to fight it is for a universal draft. But that’s not going to happen because I don’t think anyone has made the case that it actually is a war for national survival. [/QUOTE] I guess I should have added that I don’t believe this is a “war” in the sense that it can be “won” by sending in more troops. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/27 "2007-05-23T15:29:51Z")
If sending in more troops doesn’t work, they’ll cut taxes. And if that doesn’t work, they’ll send more troops. Should that fail, they can always cut taxes… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/28 "2007-05-23T17:59:53Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] You are hateful! You know how much spraying pepsi out of your nose hurts?!? [/QUOTE] If you _must_ drink anything while reading the Dope, I recommend sticking to the milder beverages. Colas especially can be rather harsh on the nasal passages! :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/29 "2007-05-23T18:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] He’s coming along nicely, as we gently guide him from the path of political error. I credit your good-natured and soothing approach. [/QUOTE] Uh hu…either that or your caustic responses totally devoid of sarcasm and/or humor. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/30 "2007-05-23T18:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] More detailed story with ‘former senior Administration official’ input. (Rummie, Wolfie, The Prince of Darkness?) [Bush may turn to UN in search for Iraq solution](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2085981,00.html) We break it you bought it. 'Yo! Evil-doers. A little help finding this here pony." [/QUOTE] You may recall, turning the mess over to the UN was part of Kerry’s platform in 2004. “Americans can be relied on to do the right thing after they have tried everything else.” – Winston Churchill ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/31 "2007-05-23T18:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Yup. I was going to mention this, but as I’m considered one of the ‘conservative’ dopers, I figured it would be better if someone else did it first. 😛 [/quote] As regards Iraq you are pretty well rehabilitated from your previous state of confusion. There remains considerable work on the remainder of your conservatism. 😉 > [@](#): > > This is really one of the lessons we SHOULD have learned after Vietnam…its really difficult to extract a countries dick from the golf shoes once its been stepped on. > > -XT The lesson that the current administration personnel and those who pushed for this war seem to have gotten from Vietnam is that you have to hang in there no matter how disasterous an idea it was in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/32 "2007-05-23T21:09:42Z")
Chief Pedant has it right. Just this morning Bush told middies graduating from the Coast Guard Academy that there are significant differences between Vietnam and Iraq. Escalations swing it back to “similar.” Like, wa-a-a-ay similar. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/33 "2007-05-23T21:19:46Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] Just this morning Bush told middies graduating from the Coast Guard Academy that there are significant differences between Vietnam and Iraq. [/QUOTE] Sure there are differences. In Vietnam we had only one set of enemies (Viet Cong, North Vietnam, USSR, all allied). The situation in Iraq is **worse.** ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/34 "2007-05-23T21:57:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sure there are differences. In Vietnam we had only one set of enemies (Viet Cong, North Vietnam, USSR, all allied). The situation in Iraq is **worse.** [/QUOTE] Desert. Jungle. Totally different. Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139/35 "2007-05-24T14:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You may recall, turning the mess over to the UN was part of Kerry’s platform in 2004. “Americans can be relied on to do the right thing after they have tried everything else.” – Winston Churchill [/QUOTE] You lie and you know you lie! 😉 If that were true the airwaves and these boards would be full of righteous conservatives braying ‘flip-flopper’ at Bush. But they aren’t. I bet if Churchill ever met Bush he’d change his mind on that one. Americans, probably? Bush and his fellow unindicted war criminals? I’m going to need a cite that they know the difference between right and wrong. Some insight into the mess provided by someone who was there. [Former Australian army lawyer says Rumsfeld’s handling of Iraq almost criminal](http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/22/asia/AS-GEN-Australia-US-Iraq.php) > [@](#): > > Former U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s handling of the Iraq war verged on criminal negligence, a former Australian army lawyer turned political candidate said Tuesday. > > \ > > Kelly — an expert on the law of occupation and peacemaking operations with experience in Somalia, Bosnia and East Timor — said he offered a plan to stop looting and protect infrastructure soon after former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was toppled. > > “We knew exactly what needed to be done,” Kelly told the ABC. > > “Then Rumsfeld came in and overruled that concept and basically threw it out the window and that was where things really started to go wrong,” he said. Like Rummie said ‘In war, shit happens.’ Then, as he went on not to say, if the shits have anything to say on the matter, it keeps on happening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-surge-wh-planning-to-nearly-double-combat-troops-in-iraq-by-christmas/405139.md?page=1)