# Second thought about minority immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505 "2010-05-23T22:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/21 "2010-05-24T13:04:49Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Ooh, yet another Angry White Man! Nah, I’m pretty calm, actually. I’ve travelled a lot and I appreciate the many benefits that other cultures bring to this country (Australia, in my case). But I really think it’s better if it’s agreed that there’s a “standard” national culture and that newcomers conform to that as much as possible, especially in regards to “controversial” things. For example: Normal French people do not wear Burqas. Therefore, I think the French Government is completely entitled to say “That’s not the way we do things here and if you don’t like it, Monsieur Le President will drive you to the airport himself.” The problem is that there’s a line between saying “Your values are incompatible with ours and whilst you are welcome here, we’d appreciate it if you refrained from publicly doing [objectionable thing]” and “NO FOREIGNERS ALLOWED!”, and working out where that line is forms a significant challenge. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/22 "2010-05-24T13:34:52Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > One way I’d describe it, actually: _multiculturalism is about celebrating dead cultures_. Cheer the traditional food and stories you brought from the old country, and honour your old grandmother (often mentioned using the word in her language, even when speaking English) at whose house you meet when there’s an important holiday, but all the while being completely disconnected from how “the old country” really is today. > > . Thats my take on it as well. Well put. Bring your funky food and odd clothing. Have your different holidays. Enjoy them, share them, we might even like them too. But when it comes to basic social interactions, business methods, legal stuff, blah blah blah with the general population of your new country, IMO you need to do as the Romans do when in Rome. If you moved from your country because it was crappy, IMO its probably that way because your culture as WHOLE doesnt work so hot. And the better country you moved to is probably better because as a WHOLE because its overall culture does work (or at least better). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/23 "2010-05-24T13:55:38Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Nah, I’m pretty calm, actually. > > I’ve travelled a lot and I appreciate the many benefits that other cultures bring to this country (Australia, in my case). But I really think it’s better if it’s agreed that there’s a “standard” national culture and that newcomers conform to that as much as possible, especially in regards to “controversial” things. > > For example: Normal French people do not wear Burqas. Therefore, I think the French Government is completely entitled to say “That’s not the way we do things here and if you don’t like it, Monsieur Le President will drive you to the airport himself.” > > The problem is that there’s a line between saying “Your values are incompatible with ours and whilst you are welcome here, we’d appreciate it if you refrained from publicly doing [objectionable thing]” and “NO FOREIGNERS ALLOWED!”, and working out where that line is forms a significant challenge. How many burqas do you see in Australia? I work in a place where we get visitors from overseas, although we have many immigrants in the city. I’ve seen ladies in many variants of traditional (& non-traditional) Muslim dress, but have _never_ seen one in a burqa. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/24 "2010-05-24T14:04:24Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > What’s “excessive multiculturalism?” > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Expecting people in your new country to publicly tolerate or accommodate your minority “foreign” culture even if they disagree with it, for a start. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Ooh, yet another Angry White Man! I don’t think this is an unreasonable point of view - and I’m an English guy of Indian descent living in the U.S. I had already left Britain by the time [Omar Bakri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Bakri_Muhammad), for example, started making headlines, but frankly I thought it was ridiculous that what I still thought of as my own government was sheltering him. We’re talking about a non-citizen who was living in Britain on a temporary visa, and calling for the violent overthrow of the government (and its replacement with an Islamic theocracy). Oh, and occasionally releasing Osama bin Laden’s statements to the press on his behalf. The government refused to throw him out (until after 9/11), and it was left to a few fringe members of the Conservative Party to call for him to be tossed - people who I’d laugh at when presented with their views on most issues (especially those related to immigration). The justification was that Britain had a long history of offering sanctuary to political radicals (Marx, _et al._) and that Bakri had not actually committed a crime. Well, fuck that. [QUOTE=billfish678] If you moved from your country because it was crappy, IMO its probably that way because your culture as WHOLE doesnt work so hot. And the better country you moved to is probably better because as a WHOLE because its overall culture does work (or at least better). [/QUOTE] Fuck this, too. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/25 "2010-05-24T14:07:38Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I don’t even think it makes them assholes. > > I live in China, and on the rare occasions that I am out with English-speaking foreigners, damn right I’m speaking English. I live 90% of my life in Chinese. It’s mentally and emotionally really difficult to do all your communication in a language that you don’t really know well enough to talk freely from the heart. You need a break now and then, a chance to talk about how you really feel in your first language. > > Granted, I usually don’t invite non-English speaking people out with me when I’m with foreigners. But occasionally one comes along and I honestly don’t feel too bad that I don’t work too hard to include them (that would generally be the job of whoever invited them.) I don’t see foreigners that often, and I don’t want to waste that precious time doing the same predictable and stilted small talk that constitutes the deepest conversation I can have in Chinese, which I repeat probably a dozen times a day. > > Does it make me an asshole? I don’t think so. Basically you’re saying “I don’t think they’re assholes… I mean, I don’t do what THEY did, so I’m not an asshole!” Well, true. But if you did what they did, you would be. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/26 "2010-05-24T14:55:59Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > The thing is, at this point we’re _running out of nationalities to be threatened by_. Just you wait, my friend, until the American economy collapses. You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/27 "2010-05-24T15:17:29Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > For example: Normal French people do not wear Burqas. Therefore, I think the French Government is completely entitled to say “That’s not the way we do things here and if you don’t like it, Monsieur Le President will drive you to the airport himself.” > > The problem is that there’s a line between saying “Your values are incompatible with ours and whilst you are welcome here, we’d appreciate it if you refrained from publicly doing [objectionable thing]” and “NO FOREIGNERS ALLOWED!”, and working out where that line is forms a significant challenge. I find this sort of talk vaguely disturbing. I don’t think government has any place in dictating the culture of a country. I don’t think people have any place in dictating another person’s culture, or how they express that culture, whether they’re the majority view or no (with the obvious disclaimer _an it harm none_ - directly harm, that is. Burqa? Can be argued to be a tool in the oppression of women. Directly, it harms no one). If you want people to conform to another culture, _promote that culture_ and let people pick up its positive aspects. Don’t prohibit or condemn other cultures, or ask them to conform. I think this applies equally to minority cultures who would prefer the majority to do things the way they do. They should absolutely promote their way of life. Without _pressuring_ other people to follow it. “We don’t do that here, and we find it objectionable” just doesn’t cut it, if the thing in question is purely cultural, and doesn’t really harm anyone. I mean, the “Don’t be a jerk” rule still applies to people as individuals, but that’s irrespective of whose culture’s what. If I meet someone whose culture offends me in some way, I try to respect that they just do things differently; I expect them to extend me the same courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/28 "2010-05-24T15:21:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fuck this, too. I take it you are from Crappistan? How was the flight? ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/29 "2010-05-24T15:23:03Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I take it you are from Crappistan? > > How was the flight? It’s more than a country’s culture alone that makes it what it is. Economic factors? Natural resources? Who its neighbours are? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/30 "2010-05-24T15:28:48Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I take it you are from Crappistan? > > How was the flight? Read the rest of my post, you fucking cretin. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/31 "2010-05-24T15:48:55Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Basically you’re saying “I don’t think they’re assholes… I mean, I don’t do what THEY did, so I’m not an asshole!” > > Well, true. But if you did what they did, you would be. You read it wrong. I basically do what they do. It’s maybe not the most caring thing, but it’s something that happens. Living in another culture is tough in a million ways and it’s hard to really understand how tough it is until you try it- especially cultures as different as China and America. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/32 "2010-05-24T15:59:05Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You read it wrong. I basically do what they do. It’s hard to say since the OP didn’t provide more details. You speak English when out with English-speaking colleagues (even if non-English speakers are there as well) because your Chinese still isn’t very good, and you don’t find it relaxing to try to speak it. And you don’t invite non-English speakers to these outings, it’s just that sometimes one tags along. In the OP’s brother-in-law’s case, the Chinese guys actually invited him, and it’s probable (although we don’t have enough details) that their English is actually quite good. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/33 "2010-05-24T15:59:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You read it wrong. I basically do what they do. You said: > [@even sven](#): > > Granted, I usually don’t invite non-English speaking people out with me when I’m with foreigners. But occasionally one comes along and I honestly don’t feel too bad that I don’t work too hard to include them (that would generally be the job of whoever invited them.) The people being called assholes are the ones whose “job it was”— those who specifically invited a non-Chinese-speaking person out to eat with them and then ignored him by speaking only Chinese. In the situation you describe, you’re a bystander. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/34 "2010-05-24T16:51:41Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > It’s hard to say since the OP didn’t provide more details. You speak English when out with English-speaking colleagues (even if non-English speakers are there as well) because your Chinese still isn’t very good, and you don’t find it relaxing to try to speak it. And you don’t invite non-English speakers to these outings, it’s just that sometimes one tags along. In the OP’s brother-in-law’s case, the Chinese guys actually invited him, and it’s probable (although we don’t have enough details) that their English is actually quite good. The OP said of his brother-in-law: “I have often wrangled with his racist attitudes…” After the Chinese-only lunch, “I had no response to challenge his negative view of multicultural immigration.” The guy is a racist who feels resentment at work, because he is surrounded by Chinese Canadians. I somehow doubt he’s hidden these feelings from his co-workers. They should have suggested he stay at the office & nuke his own bland lunch; instead, they took a passive-aggressive approach & spoke Chinese among themselves. (It sounds like they stick to English at work.) Rather rude. But rudeness knows no ethnic boundaries. He _already had_ a negative view of multicultural immigration, as did our OP. These are legal immigrants. Perhaps the OP needs to start a campaign to Keep Canada White. (What’s Mandarin or Cantonese for “Pinche Gabacho”?) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/35 "2010-05-24T17:45:10Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The people being called assholes are the ones whose “job it was”— those who specifically invited a non-Chinese-speaking person out to eat with them and then ignored him by speaking only Chinese. I have to wonder if any of them actually “invited” **Dutchman** ’s racist brother out to lunch. I’ve noticed that serious racists have a tendency to reinterpret events to bolster their prejudices. I can pretty easily envision this guy tagging along uninvited, and then getting all pissy because all of the folks who didn’t want him to be there in the first place, don’t want to talk to his racist ass. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/36 "2010-05-24T18:04:44Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Ooh, yet another Angry White Man! Ooh, another self-righteous white bimbo! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/37 "2010-05-24T18:14:29Z")
deleted ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/38 "2010-05-24T18:17:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve noticed that serious racists have a tendency to reinterpret events to bolster their prejudices. And I’ve notice anti-white progressives have a tendency to deny racial animosity towards whites no matter how blatant it may be. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/39 "2010-05-24T18:19:53Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Ooh, another self-righteous white bimbo! Not self righteous. Just not rendered impotent by fear. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/40 "2010-05-24T18:21:12Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And I’ve notice anti-white progressives have a tendency to deny racial animosity towards whites no matter how blatant it may be. Case in point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505.md?page=3)