# Second thought about minority immigration **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505 "2010-05-23T22:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/61 "2010-05-25T17:13:17Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You couldn’t find any previous indication where I showed interest in multiculturalism and thus conclude I’m lying? Fuck you. > > … > > Fuck you. **Flying Dutchman** , this violates our language limitations for the Pit. In the future, please refrain from making direct sexual insults towards another poster. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/62 "2010-05-25T19:07:28Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’m struggling to think of many, besides the _Anne of Green Gables, The English Patient_, _Porky’s_, and… not much else. Well as I said, French-language books and movies from Canada are more likely to become popular because they don’t have to compete with the mass of American cultural exports. You haven’t heard of them because it’s very rare for a “foreign-language” cultural product to become well-known in the English-speaking world. It happens once in a while with, for example, movies such as _Amelie_ (which amazingly I still haven’t seen yet) but they start with several strikes against them. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I posted quite recently and positively on Canadian multiculturalism. **Hypnic Jerk** can attest to that. The problem is that you don’t know what multiculturalism means. You cheer for it because you’ve been told that it’s great and so Canadian, but you haven’t even put any thought into it. Now you’re finding out that integration is actually a bumpy process in some cases, even though some of your examples are actually fairly dubious. Maybe in a few years you’ll have developed a certain amount of political sophistication and you’ll be able to talk about multiculturalism like a grown-up. I don’t expect it, especially since it’d require you to reevaluate what you know and look at things through a different point of view, but I guess it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/63 "2010-05-26T15:03:46Z")
> [@JohnnyMac](#): > > I find this sort of talk vaguely disturbing. I don’t think government has any place in dictating the culture of a country. I don’t think people have any place in dictating another person’s culture, or how they express that culture, whether they’re the majority view or no (with the obvious disclaimer _an it harm none_ - directly harm, that is. Burqa? Can be argued to be a tool in the oppression of women. Directly, it harms no one). A more compelling argument for the burqa ban is the obvious risk to public safety from having people go around in public dressed in garments that conceal their identities and have enough hiding space to accomidate anything up to and possibly including a WMD. (The association with a culture that includes an active terrorist fringe aggravates the problem.) For example, Virginia has an anti-concealing-mask law (passed to combat Ku Klux Klan terrorism) which was challenged in court and upheld. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/64 "2010-05-27T21:17:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > A more compelling argument for the burqa ban is the obvious risk to public safety from having people go around in public dressed in garments that conceal their identities and have enough hiding space to accomidate anything up to and possibly including a WMD. That kind of reasoning wouldn’t cut it in Canada. Ski masks or balaclavas and parkas fit all of those criteria, and I’m not facing a Saskatchewan winter without them. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/65 "2010-05-28T00:13:28Z")
> [@3trew](#): > > That kind of reasoning wouldn’t cut it in Canada. Ski masks or balaclavas and parkas fit all of those criteria, and I’m not facing a Saskatchewan winter without them. Speaking of that, I’m friends with a girl whose family came over to Sask from Central America. Her parents were university educated back in their home country, although the degrees are invalid here. Her parents are also big volunteers in the community, and her father likes to experience different cultures and is interested in traditional Aboriginal rituals like sweat lodges. So her family is definitely not one of those ‘bad’ immigrant families, but stuff still happens to them. Her dad is very sensitive to cold, so he wears a balaclava all the time. Once he was driving with it on and got pulled over and he explained that he found it cold, even in the heated vehicle. Cop still gave him a lot of shit. Never heard of anything like that happening to whitey over here. Then again, her family is often mistaken as Aboriginal, which opens up a new can of worms. But I look at my friend and her facial structure and eyes just scream SPANISH to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/66 "2010-05-28T01:34:55Z")
**kushiel’s** friend aside, very few people wear a ski mask or balaclava inside - you take it off as soon as you come in so your face can warm up. I don’t think you need to assume racism for the cops when they see something weird (and yes, driving in a warm car with your balaclava on is weird). ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/67 "2010-05-28T01:57:56Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Well as I said, French-language books and movies from Canada are more likely to become popular because they don’t have to compete with the mass of American cultural exports. You haven’t heard of them because it’s very rare for a “foreign-language” cultural product to become well-known in the English-speaking world. It happens once in a while with, for example, movies such as _Amelie_ (which amazingly I still haven’t seen yet) but they start with several strikes against them. Agreed, and I think it is worth noting that Quebec has managed to grow its own culture. This may well be because of necessity caused by the language issue; but regardless, Quebec’s music, literature, and film are definitely unique and popular among Quebecers. I would imagine some of them are also popular in the rest of the French-speaking world as well. I don’t know why English-speaking Canada has not done the same, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/68 "2010-05-28T06:00:47Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I don’t know why English-speaking Canada has not done the same, though. Because English-language literature and film from Canada has to compete with the mass of English-language literature and film from the United States. If they deal with specifically “Canadian” themes, they may fall into a certain niche, but then again the line is thin between this and falling into a cliché. Otherwise, American cultural products are practically seen as domestic productions in Canada. Indeed, I believe Hollywood considers Canada part of its domestic market. I’m not sure how other English-language countries manage. I remember seeing a discussion of Australian film here on the SDMB, and while my memory is vague what I recall reading is that while some gems can be found in Australian cinema, for the most part it isn’t especially good. Certainly they operate under the same constraints as English-Canadian cinema. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/69 "2010-05-28T06:36:28Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Because English-language literature and film from Canada has to compete with the mass of English-language literature and film from the United States. If they deal with specifically “Canadian” themes, they may fall into a certain niche, but then again the line is thin between this and falling into a cliché. Niches and cliches seem to be necessary in English-Canadian arts; at least, according to their creators. A friend once posited that English-language Canadian literature and films were ineligible to be considered Canadian unless they included at least: – One Francophone (whose English approximated that of Jean Chretien, but it was important to establish that they were from Quebec and that their mother tongue was French); – One Aboriginal; – A visible minority (Jamaican, Pakistani, and East Indian if possible; but Italian, Greek, and Portugese were good too) – A well-known (to Canadians) street or neighbourhood; for example, Ste Catherine Street or Westmount in Montreal, Yonge Street or Cabbagetown in Toronto, 17th Avenue or Mount Royal in Calgary, or Robson Street or the West End in Vancouver; and – A reference to a Canadian pro sports team (the Canadiens, the Maple Leafs, the Blue Jays, the Expos, the Stampeders, the Lions, etc.) Me, I’d like to see some English-language Canadian culture that didn’t have to waste time fulfilling the above “quotas,” and simply got on with the story. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/70 "2010-05-28T15:23:07Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Niches and cliches seem to be necessary in English-Canadian arts; at least, according to their creators. A friend once posited that English-language Canadian literature and films were ineligible to be considered Canadian unless they included at least: > > – One Francophone (whose English approximated that of Jean Chretien, but it was important to establish that they were from Quebec and that their mother tongue was French); > > – One Aboriginal; > > – A visible minority (Jamaican, Pakistani, and East Indian if possible; but Italian, Greek, and Portugese were good too) > > – A well-known (to Canadians) street or neighbourhood; for example, Ste Catherine Street or Westmount in Montreal, Yonge Street or Cabbagetown in Toronto, 17th Avenue or Mount Royal in Calgary, or Robson Street or the West End in Vancouver; and > > – A reference to a Canadian pro sports team (the Canadiens, the Maple Leafs, the Blue Jays, the Expos, the Stampeders, the Lions, etc.) > > Me, I’d like to see some English-language Canadian culture that didn’t have to waste time fulfilling the above “quotas,” and simply got on with the story. I loved the CBC miniseries [Dragon Boys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Boys). Yes, it deals with a minority, but having to figure out how to deal with Triads with Canadian cops, not Hong Kong ones, and integrating into Canadian life makes it interesting. Someone from BC might roll their eyes, but as someone not from BC, the large Asian population is something that defines Vancouver for me. It’s a movie made in Canada, but it’s on a topic that could happen in any place Chinese have immigrated to. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/71 "2010-06-02T02:06:10Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Niches and cliches seem to be necessary in English-Canadian arts; at least, according to their creators. A friend once posited that English-language Canadian literature and films were ineligible to be considered Canadian unless they included at least: > > – One Francophone (whose English approximated that of Jean Chretien, but it was important to establish that they were from Quebec and that their mother tongue was French); > > – One Aboriginal; > > – A visible minority (Jamaican, Pakistani, and East Indian if possible; but Italian, Greek, and Portugese were good too) What’s interesting about this is that it tells us a lot about how these creators view or would like to view their country, and by extension, since many of them are probably from the Toronto area or whereabouts, how Torontonians would like to imagine Canada. Having an aboriginal Canadian is completely unsurprising, since Canadians tend to be somewhat ashamed about how aborigines have been treated in the past, but don’t especially want to do anything about it other than “recognize their importance to Canadian culture”. Having a visible minority is also important in order to show Canadians value multiculturalism, and I assume Jamaicans, Pakistanis and Indians are those we find in substantial numbers in Toronto. As for the token francophone, it’s interesting that you mention they need to speak English, but with a very strong accent. Seems to me that’s basically “fitting the stereotype”. I’m sure that the authors who put these characters in their work think they’re being very progressive and open-minded recognizing the various facets of Canada, but it seems to me that they’re actually following stereotypes. I’m sure the token aborigine is more often then not in some way “in tune with nature”, for example. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/72 "2010-06-02T16:19:58Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > As for the token francophone, it’s interesting that you mention they need to speak English, but with a very strong accent. Well you might explain John Paul Tremblay’s character “Julian” in the Canadian television series _Trailor Park Boys_. And no aboriginals and no visible minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/73 "2010-06-03T15:16:06Z")
Never seen that show. What about the character? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/74 "2010-06-03T21:14:51Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > How many burqas do you see in Australia? > > I work in a place where we get visitors from overseas, although we have many immigrants in the city. I’ve seen ladies in many variants of traditional (& non-traditional) Muslim dress, but have _never_ seen one in a burqa. I work at a place where there are a few immigrant young women who wear them. Honestly it was a bit jarring at first, being my first time seeing someone wear one in person. But they don’t bother anyone…who cares? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/75 "2010-06-03T21:20:45Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Whilst I can’t recall seeing a full-on Burqa, I have seen plenty of Middle Eastern women wearing the next best thing (the long robes and headdress with the face coverings leaving only the eyes visible), especially on the Gold Coast during the tourist season. Apologies, I thought this WAS a Burqa. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/76 "2010-06-03T22:27:54Z")
> [@julius blaze](#): > > Apologies, I thought this WAS a Burqa. No, that’s a niqab. A burqa also obscures the eyes. [Here’s the difference 'tween the two.](http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/veils4.jpg.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505/77 "2010-06-04T01:19:27Z")
Something wrong with your link there. Here’s [another](http://humanrightsinireland.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/hijab1.jpg) illustrating the categories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/second-thought-about-minority-immigration/540505.md?page=3)