# Secular America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330 "2013-08-15T17:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/1 "2013-08-15T17:45:21Z")
Since most of the people on here are American I was wondering whether you thought that as a Secular nation in theory the USA is secular in practice. It doesn’t seem like religion and state are properly separated and all religions don’t seem to be treated equally probably because a significance amount of the people in government are Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/2 "2013-08-15T17:59:27Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Since most of the people on here are American I was wondering whether you thought that as a Secular nation in theory the USA is secular in practice. It doesn’t seem like religion and state are properly separated and all religions don’t seem to be treated equally probably because a significance amount of the people in government are Christian. It is more or less secular in practice. Compared even to other First World nations, the United States is more secular without any sort of established Church nor confessional parties (such as the Christian Democratic parties in European nations). There is a lot of religious influence in politics certainly but that exists in every country and all religions are essentially treated equally. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/3 "2013-08-15T18:04:28Z")
Considering [how religious U.S. citizens are,](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-barber/why-religion-rules-americ_b_1690433.html), American government is amazingly secular. > [@](#): > > For a developed country, the U.S. is extraordinarily high on religion. Thus 65 percent of Americans say that religion is important in their daily lives compared to just 17 percent of Swedes, 19 percent of Danes, and 24 percent of Japanese. Could you articulate ways in which all religions aren’t treated equally? Do you mean things like blue laws, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/4 "2013-08-15T18:06:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It is more or less secular in practice. Compared even to other First World nations, the United States is more secular without any sort of established Church nor confessional parties (such as the Christian Democratic parties in European nations). There is a lot of religious influence in politics certainly but that exists in every country and all religions are essentially treated equally. GB, even with the COE is certainly more secular in practice than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/5 "2013-08-15T18:10:02Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > GB, even with the COE is certainly more secular in practice than the US. Meaning what, exactly? The role of religion in public life? The number of political candidates who are religious? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/6 "2013-08-15T18:24:05Z")
I _think_ the OP is talking about the government being secular, as opposed to the individual private citizens. My impression (from my admittedly limited point of view) is that, on the national level, the US government does a pretty good job of separating church & state, and living up to the First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”). At the state and local level, it varies depending on what part of the country you’re in, though even at that level, egregious violations are the exception rather than the rule. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/7 "2013-08-15T18:26:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Could you articulate ways in which all religions aren’t treated equally? Do you mean things like blue laws, or what? Christmas is a federal holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/8 "2013-08-15T18:27:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There is a lot of religious influence in politics certainly but that exists in every country and all religions are essentially treated equally. You mean treated equally by the government, as opposed to being treated equally in political debates and popular opinion, right? Because the former I agree with, but the latter is just absurd. See, “Ground Zero Mosque.” ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/9 "2013-08-15T18:29:11Z")
I forget who I’m stealing this observation from, but it strikes me as accurate. “If India is the most religious nation on Earth, and Sweden is the least religious nation on Earth, think of the United States as a nation of Indians ruled by Swedes.” ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/10 "2013-08-15T18:32:58Z")
The biggest ways in which the US is religious are: - Christian-based holidays … pretty much only Christmas now - “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance – lip service only - Prayers at the beginning of Congress sessions (annually? no idea how often) - We used to sometimes have prayers at public gatherings, like for school games, but this is now rare, only allowed in “semi public” things, such as a public gathering sponsored by a private entity (example: breaking ground on a new building, launching a ship) However, in politics, religion is a big issue. The vast majority of elected officials are either Christian or Jewish. No doubt there will be a growing number of Muslim. Very few are professed atheists or agnostics. A lot of political issues involve stong lines drawn largely on religious bases, such as abortion. But it’s very easy to be an atheist in the US, and nobody knows or cares. I work in the networking industry; rarely does religion come up even in a casual lunchtime conversation. When it does, it’s more often I who raise the subject (respectfully, asking questions and not giving opinions – which takes considerable restraint!) ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/11 "2013-08-15T18:34:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > “If India is the most religious nation on Earth, and Sweden is the least religious nation on Earth, think of the United States as a nation of Indians ruled by Swedes.” Good one! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/12 "2013-08-15T18:35:23Z")
The US tries the keep state and religion apart quite well in my opinion. Religions don’t feel the same imperative to keep separate and since one religion dominates here, by far, they tend to get their way in many things. The state keeps a pretty hard line though and things are getting better for us non-Christains. We can buy beer on Sundays now! ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/13 "2013-08-15T19:16:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Considering [how religious U.S. citizens are,](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-barber/why-religion-rules-americ_b_1690433.html), American government is amazingly secular. > > Could you articulate ways in which all religions aren’t treated equally? Do you mean things like blue laws, or what? Blue laws, Christmas as a public holiday,‘one nation under god’ as a part of the pledge of allegiance and in god we trust on US currency. All of these are either directly or indirectly ways that the government are promoting Christianity as the state religion, even if all it amounts to is paying lip service to the masses to appease them. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/14 "2013-08-15T19:20:28Z")
In the USA people look at you funny if you say you are an atheist, in the UK people look at you funny if you say you are religious. That seems the biggest difference to me. Tony Blair wouldn’t have been elected had the true depth of his religious convictions been known. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/15 "2013-08-15T19:25:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Christmas is a federal holiday. Christmas is a secular holiday. You can start complaining when they stop delivering the mail for the Feast of the Ascension. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/16 "2013-08-15T19:27:51Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Blue laws, Christmas as a public holiday,‘one nation under god’ as a part of the pledge of allegiance and in god we trust on US currency. > > All of these are either directly or indirectly ways that the government are promoting Christianity as the state religion, even if all it amounts to is paying lip service to the masses to appease them. The reality is that Christmas in the USA is both a religious _and_ a secular holiday. I don’t know of any “blue laws” that are enforced on a federal level, unless you count things like government workers getting weekends off, but that could be defended on nonreligious grounds. “One nation under God” and “In God we trust” are problematic, but in any event they’re not specifically, explicitly Christian. They’ve been described as “ceremonial deism.” ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/17 "2013-08-15T19:30:56Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The reality is that Christmas in the USA is both a religious _and_ a secular holiday. > > I don’t know of any “blue laws” that are enforced on a federal level, unless you count things like government workers getting weekends off, but that could be defended on nonreligious grounds. > > “One nation under God” and “In God we trust” are problematic, but in any event they’re not specifically, explicitly Christian. They’ve been described as “ceremonial deism.” “Ceremonial deism” is a handwave that religious people use in order to keep very serious references to their particular religion in the public square. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/18 "2013-08-15T19:35:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Christmas is a federal holiday. And? Christmas is a secular holiday that is also celebrated with specific religious traditions by specific denominations. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/19 "2013-08-15T19:39:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Christmas is a federal holiday. Ok, there’s one, though Christmas is as much a secular holiday as a religious one, at present. > [@Longshanks](#): > > Blue laws, Have no religious content; there is no Biblical injunction to refrain from drinking alcohol. > [@Longshanks](#): > > Christmas as a public holiday… As much cultural as religious, but sure. That counts. > [@Longshanks](#): > > ,‘one nation under god’ as a part of the pledge of allegiance and in god we trust on US currency. > > All of these are either directly or indirectly ways that the government are promoting Christianity as the state religion, even if all it amounts to is paying lip service to the masses to appease them. Those two merely promote monotheism, not Christianity in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/20 "2013-08-15T19:40:50Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > “Ceremonial deism” is a handwave that religious people use in order to keep very serious references to their particular religion in the public square. What about “one nation under God” or “in God we trust” are references to one particular religion? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330.md?page=2)