# Secular America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330 "2013-08-15T17:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/61 "2013-08-16T16:34:06Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > What I do remember is that nobody took the trouble to explain it or make sure we said it correctly. In elementary school, most kids started off with “I Pledge of allegiance …” Ain’t that the truth. I think we got as far as “I pledge allegiance to the flag…” and then there was just a roomwide buzzing as each kid got the rest of the words wrong in his or her own way. No one (least of all the teacher) cared. > [@Longshanks](#): > > I think the point that some are trying to make is that if America is secular why then is religion, any religion for that matter being referenced on the currency and pledge of allegiance. It is a little silly. But it’s equally silly that to pretend the phrase has power over the population’s feeling on religion. A few people care a lot, but for most, I feel safe in saying religion gets a big “meh.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/62 "2013-08-16T16:34:14Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Right, they’re decreasing, and also, they’re not federal. But they do exist. They’re pretty minor in any case, mostly things like not being able to buy liquor on Sunday morning (because you should be in church, dadgummit!) Clearly a Christian bias here, though. Depends on where you are. I have no trouble buying alcohol on Sunday morning. It definitely takes a while to get rid of these laws. > [@](#): > > Yeah, a secular holiday whose name begins with “Christ”. Christmas is in the process of becoming a secular holiday. It originally was a pagan one, became coopted into a Christian one, and is losing it’s Christian aspect (much to the horror of many militant Christians). Still, it’s a vestige of a Christian bias in the US society that’s found its way into government (since federal offices are closed). Halloween has religious roots also. Not a public holiday, sure. Given the large number of people - Christian and non-Christian - who celebrate Christmas not having it as a holiday would just cause all sorts of problems. When I was a kid schools in NY closed for major Jewish holidays, not because NY was Jewish city, but just because so many students and teachers took off it was pointless to pretend that they could get any work done. They eventually did away with it, and when my secular Jewish parents sent me to school anyway, we had about 15% attendance. You might as well complain about the Norse gods stuck in our weekday names. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/63 "2013-08-16T16:38:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The only religious message one can take from “In God We Trust” or “One Nation Under God” is that there is one God, in whom trust should be placed. I’ve known devout Hindus who talk about God in the singular as the higher concept of God. Aristotle, at least in the translation I read, spoke of both God and gods. In the former case there might be monotheistic contamination, but has there been any major objections to just God? In the Sh’ma it is very explicit - the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. Not in the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/64 "2013-08-16T17:15:02Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > I think the point that some are trying to make is that if America is secular why then is religion, any religion for that matter being referenced on the currency and pledge of allegiance. Because people wanted it there, and were able to persuade the government to add it, while keeping it content-lite enough to avoid it being found unconstitutional. It shouldn’t be there, but the problem with it isn’t that it’s endorsing Christianity, but that it has any religious message at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/65 "2013-08-16T18:11:56Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Better than those who _prove_ themselves to be ignorant by comparing Middle Eastern religiosity to that of Europe. Had I done so you’d have a point. Beyond that it’s hysterical to read such a statement from someone who foolishly thought there was no difference between Syria and Pakistan, which have less in common with each other than Brazil and the UK. Anyway, if you want to continue this hijack, I suggest you take it to the pit. I myself have no interest in it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/66 "2013-08-16T18:16:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Farming equipment.](http://getoffmyinternets.net/avatars/2000px-symbol-hammer-and-sickle.svg.png) Yes, it is, which goes to show that symbols only have the meaning we give to them. But to your point, it’s apples and oranges. The hammer and sickle has one meaning, worldwide (of which I am aware): Communism. The word “God” does _not_ have one meaning, worldwide. Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and so on would all give you very different answers if you asked them what God was. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/67 "2013-08-16T18:17:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve known devout Hindus who talk about God in the singular as the higher concept of God. Aristotle, at least in the translation I read, spoke of both God and gods. In the former case there might be monotheistic contamination, but has there been any major objections to just God? > > In the Sh’ma it is very explicit - the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. Not in the pledge. I did not know that. Interesting point. Some polytheists (and atheists, of course) are still left out in the cold, though. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/68 "2013-08-16T18:19:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, it is, which goes to show that symbols only have the meaning we give to them. > > But to your point, it’s apples and oranges. The hammer and sickle has one meaning, worldwide (of which I am aware): Communism. > > The word “God” does _not_ have one meaning, worldwide. Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Protestants, and so on would all give you very different answers if you asked them what God was. Well essentially they all believe in the abrahamic god, but yes they probably would give you different answers to the same questions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/69 "2013-08-16T18:23:34Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Well essentially they all believe in the abrahamic god, but yes they probably would give you different answers to the same questions. Now ask all of them what God they think is being referred to in the phrase “In God We Trust”. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/70 "2013-08-16T19:10:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that it’s hysterical to read such a statement from someone who foolishly thought there was no difference between Syria and Pakistan, which have less in common with each other than Brazil and the UK. I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Perhaps, in your usual hurry to find racism in anything related to Islam or predominantly Muslim countries, you misunderstood something. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/71 "2013-08-16T19:27:52Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Out of curiosity do schoolkids in America do the whole pledge of allegiance thing every day or just on certain days. Everyday. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/72 "2013-08-16T20:11:52Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I’m an athiest and I love me some Christmas, so it’s a secular holiday for at least one person. It’s huge in Japan also. My family always celebrated it and never saw it as a Christian holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/73 "2013-08-16T20:15:56Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Perhaps, in your usual hurry to find racism in anything related to Islam or predominantly Muslim countries, you misunderstood something. I’m not sure why you’re engaging in personal attacks outside the pit. I recommend going there if you want to continue this hijack. Beyond that, I said nothing about racism so please don’t misrepresent what I said. It’s extremely rude. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/74 "2013-08-16T20:34:51Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Out of curiosity do schoolkids in America do the whole pledge of allegiance thing every day or just on certain days. I graduated high school is 1994 so my information may be out of date. My father was in the US Army and growing up I went to many schools that were located on military bases. We said the pledge at those schools every single morning. When he retired and I attended schools off base in Colorado Springs and later in Texas I don’t ever recall saying the pledge as part of our morning classroom routine. Of course we have thousands of independent school districts in the United States and I have no doubt there are some where the pledge is part of the daily morning ritual. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/75 "2013-08-16T20:36:53Z")
I don’t recall a lot of government buildings being open on Christmas Day in Germany. So it’s a bit silly to use it as an example of how non-secular the United States is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/76 "2013-08-16T22:36:31Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t recall a lot of government buildings being open on Christmas Day in Germany. So it’s a bit silly to use it as an example of how non-secular the United States is. Agreed. Do school kids in the UK and Canada go to school on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day? ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/77 "2013-08-16T22:55:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. Do school kids in the UK and Canada go to school on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day? FYI: The UK isn’t a secular nation. Ever heard of a small thing called the Church of England. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/78 "2013-08-16T23:46:44Z")
The UK isn’t officially secular, but in practice, references to God are few and far between. Politicians rarely mention their religious beliefs and the religious moralists are much less vocal/numerous/powerful than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/79 "2013-08-17T00:08:26Z")
The last census in the UK reported that 25% of the population had no religion a big increase from 10 years previously when the porportion was 15%. The Constituion of the UK is quite different. Religion figures prominently. The official religion is the Protestant Church of England and the King or Queen is the head of that Church. Despite being embedded in the (unwritten) Constitution these features are pretty much relics of times gone by. Eventually the laws will be repealed and we will get rid of those darned bishops from the House of Lords (which is the equivalent of the Senate) and allow the King or Queen to marry who they like (there are still laws against them marrying Catholics.) Maybe, one day we actually get to vote for members of the upper house. The US Constitution attempted to solve to problems prevalent at the time such as Absolute Monarchies and Religious Persecution. It did a reasonable job. The UK managed the same thing by evolving the relationship between the role of Religion, the Head of State and the Parliament by a succession of overlaid laws. Both are solutions to the same problem of deciding how the nation is to be governed. But it is not difficult to spot absurdities. Constitutions take a lot of work to get right. Culture…that is a different thing. It changes faster. So you can have a secular culture with a religious constitution (UK) Or a religious culture with a secular constitution (USA) Tony Blair had to be very quiet about his religious beliefs. His chief media manager and political adviser, Alistair Campbell, famously said ‘We don’t do God’. Admittedly after being provoked by being asked whether he prayed with President Bush. It would be a vote loser. I am guessing it would be quite difficult for a US president to avoid some expression of piety to appeal to voters with a religious disposition. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/80 "2013-08-17T00:51:56Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I’m an athiest and I love me some Christmas, so it’s a secular holiday for at least one person. Yeah, my hardcore atheist buddy enjoys Christmas every bit as much as I do; he just doesn’t much like his family. He’s also one of the biggest Halloween costume-wearers I know of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330.md?page=5)