# Secular America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330 "2013-08-15T17:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/81 "2013-08-17T01:38:20Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > FYI: The UK isn’t a secular nation. Ever heard of a small thing called the Church of England. I’m aware of that. Neither are most European countries nor do I think that’s a bad thing. One can be non-secular without being a theocracy. Anyway, are there any Western European countries where kids go to school on Christmas? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/82 "2013-08-17T02:46:49Z")
Thing about the blue laws: I’ve never thought of blue laws as being anything BUT religious. My family took a yearly vacay to Ocean City, NJ, which still has blue laws. Now I was 10, 11, 12, the house rental are always from Saturday to Saturday. We arrive on Saturday, unpack, go to first day on beach on Sunday. And. I. Want. My. Boogie Board. Can I have one? Nope. Blue laws. As it was explained to me by store owners then and now, Sunday is a day of rest (_Totally_ biblical, IMO). So no items of “recreation” can be sold on Sundays. No bucket and pail, no beach chairs, no beach ball. Stores in towns with blue laws have “items of recreation” in a large section of the store so they can be roped off on Sundays. Yes, you can have sun block because it’s considered medical. :rolleyes: I consider these laws unconstitutional, but it’s a state thing, not a federal thing. So I guess there’s hand-waving at that too, much like how our money mentions a god, but not a specific one as others have pointed out. So the stores are secular Monday through Saturday, not Sunday. So to say if secular America exists, I say it does… sort of. Six days a week. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/83 "2013-08-17T03:14:29Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Can I have one? Nope. Blue laws. As it was explained to me by store owners then and now, Sunday is a day of rest (_Totally_ biblical, IMO). If it’s totally Biblical, perhaps you could cite chapter and verse. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/84 "2013-08-17T03:29:47Z")
Exodus 20:8-10 are the “day of rest” verses, traditionally thus, > [@KJV](#): > > 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. > > 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. > > 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. I’m not sure, however, how that permits commerce in medical and other items, but not recreational. Seems to me stores ought to be shut entirely, if anything. And recreation is part and parcel with rest. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/85 "2013-08-17T03:43:11Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Exodus 20:8-10 are the “day of rest” verses, traditionally thus, > I’m not sure, however, how that permits commerce in medical and other items, but not recreational. Seems to me stores ought to be shut entirely, if anything. And recreation is part and parcel with rest. Yeah, thanks; my objection wasn’t to the concept of a weekly day of rest being Biblically based, but to the specific application (not to mention the notion that [Sunday specifically was a day of rest](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1015/why-do-christians-worship-on-sunday-when-the-bible-says-the-sabbath-is-on-saturday)). ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/86 "2013-08-17T03:43:57Z")
[quote=“Thudlow\_Boink, post:6, topic:666330”] I _think_ the OP is talking about the government being secular, as opposed to the individual private citizens. While America was never a Theocracy, its culture, laws and local & national government(s), were steeped in the Judeo-Christian ethic. (de Tocqueville, a must read.) Whatever America’s culture has become now (Slouching Towards Gomorrah a great read) will be reflected by the leadership it tolerates. “My impression (from my admittedly limited point of view) is that, on the national level, the US government does a pretty good job of separating church & state, and living up to the First Amendment…” Nothing could be further from the truth. Google, Obamacare vs religious freedom.’ Hear what pro-religious advocates have to say and the course of action they are engaged in. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/87 "2013-08-17T04:37:26Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Nothing could be further from the truth. Google, Obamacare vs religious freedom.’ > Hear what pro-religious advocates have to say and the course of action they are engaged in. Whining about their persecution fantasies, mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/88 "2013-08-17T05:16:50Z")
FWIW, Germany and other European countries also have “Blue laws” restricting Sunday business activity on their books. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/89 "2013-08-17T06:01:44Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Out of curiosity do schoolkids in America do the whole pledge of allegiance thing every day or just on certain days. It depends on where you are. It could vary from room to room in buildings where there is no policy, building to building in districts with no policy, etc. My personal experience was that we did it every day in three of my four schools and every Monday in the other. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/90 "2013-08-17T06:43:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Whining about their persecution fantasies, mostly. I thought we were discussing religious fanatics not paranoid atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/91 "2013-08-17T14:04:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I thought we were discussing religious fanatics not paranoid atheists. On second thought, considering how many people believe there’s a “war on Christmas” and that Obama is “violating religious liberty” my comment was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/92 "2013-08-17T20:38:18Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > I came by to ask this question, and this thread seems relevant. > > What the F is up with legislative prayer? The Supreme Court’s opinion in Marsh v. Chambers should answer you. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/93 "2013-08-17T20:53:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Whining about their persecution fantasies, mostly. ‘Whiners’ just complain and lack the fortitude to take a course of action on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/94 "2013-08-17T20:55:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Supreme Court’s opinion in Marsh v. Chambers should answer you. A summary for those of us that don’t have it memorized, please. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/95 "2013-08-18T05:11:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A summary for those of us that don’t have it memorized, please. > [@](#): > > In a 6-to-3 decision, the Court upheld the chaplaincy practice. In his opinion for the Court, Chief Justice Warren Burger abandoned the three-part test of Lemon v. Kurtzman, which had been the touchstone for cases involving the Establishment Clause. In its place, Burger rested the Court’s opinion on historical custom. Prayers by tax-supported legislative chaplains could be traced to the First Continental Congress and to the First Congress that framed the Bill of Rights. As a consequence, the chaplaincy practice had become “part of the fabric of our society.” In such circumstances, an invocation for Divine guidance is not an establishment of religion. “It is,” wrote Burger, “simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country.” > **[{{meta.pageTitle}}](https://www.oyez.org/cases/1982/82-23)** > > {{meta.description}} eta: mmmmm… Chief Justice Burger… ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/96 "2013-08-18T05:19:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If it’s totally Biblical, perhaps you could cite chapter and verse. Um…the 4th commandment in most christian sects? > [@](#): > > 8–11 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Athanasius noted that the stuff that remained should be moved from the Sabbath to Sunday to celebrate the resurrection. > [@](#): > > “The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation” (On Sabbath and Circumcision 3 [A.D. 345]). ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/97 "2013-08-19T18:08:55Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > [{{meta.fullTitle}}](http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1982/1982_82_23) > > eta: mmmmm… Chief Justice Burger… Fascinating, but it fails to answer the question I initially posed: “First off, since when has ‘we’ve always done it that way’ ever been justification for an abrogation of individual rights?” I mean, really, that’s what his opinion boils down to: “We’ve always done it, so it must be okay.” Additionally, I can’t find anything in Burger’s opinion regarding “solemnization” and how it is improved by having a sectarian prayer before commencing the people’s work. I believe Brennan and Stevens were on the right side of things in this case, but alas, one is dead and the other retired, and the odds of their opinions holding sway are diminishing rather than improving. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/98 "2013-08-20T00:28:44Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Fascinating, but it fails to answer the question I initially posed: “First off, since when has ‘we’ve always done it that way’ ever been justification for an abrogation of individual rights?” Sure it does: at least since 1982. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/99 "2013-08-20T03:29:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > My impression (from my admittedly limited point of view) is that, on the national level, the US government does a pretty good job of separating church & state, and living up to the First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”). It’s hard to tell because the successes in that area are mostly things that don’t arise in the first place, or haven’t in at least a generation or two. There are lawsuits over Decalogue displays, but I don’t think the “no religious test” clause has been explicitly invoked ince the 18th century – it hasn’t had to be. And there’s never been a state church on the Federal level, or Federal blasphemy laws. We can all think of religious activities the government gets up to and shouldn’t, but it’s hard to point to ones that never occurred to it. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330/100 "2013-08-21T03:08:46Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > No bucket and pail, no beach chairs, no beach ball. Stores in towns with blue laws have “items of recreation” in a large section of the store so they can be roped off on Sundays. Yes, you can have sun block because it’s considered medical. :rolleyes: For a while when I was a lad, and back when NZ had blue laws, my folks owned a Dairy (err… a _7-11_ ish shop). On Sunday parts were curtained off; some things could be sold, others not. One oddness I recall was that magazines were OK, but books were not… with the result that on Sunday one could not purchase a bible, but could buy a _Playboy_. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-america/666330.md?page=6)