# Secular Islamic Countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 19, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654 "2007-06-19T23:53:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/1 "2007-06-19T23:53:32Z")
Any islamic countries that are considered secular, compared to other Islamic nations? What about Islamic people who are the minority in other countries. Are they more liberal or conservative compared to other nations? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/2 "2007-06-19T23:54:04Z")
Turkey certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/3 "2007-06-19T23:57:46Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Turkey certainly is. [/QUOTE] For now. The only country that is legitimately a Muslim theocracy is Iran. The rest are nominally secular. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/4 "2007-06-20T00:07:44Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > Any islamic countries that are considered secular, compared to other Islamic nations? Turkey is a Muslim-majority country with a [constitutionally prescribed secular government](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Turkey): > [@](#): > > The Constitution asserts that Turkey is a secular and democratic republic, deriving its sovereignty from the people. The sovereignty rests with the Turkish Nation, who delegates its exercise to an elected unicameral parliament, the Turkish Grand National Assembly. Moreover, Article 4 declares the immovability the founding principles of the Republic defined in the first three Articles, “laïcité, social equality, equality before law, the Republican form of government, the indivisibility of the Republic and of the Turkish Nation”, and bans any proposals for their modification. Malaysia and Indonesia also have principles of secular government, but they have active pro-Shari’a movements that are working to bring the civil laws in line with (their interpretation of) Islamic religious law. Most post-colonial Muslim-majority states adopted secular forms of government, but several have been more or less “Shari’aized” since then. It isn’t always easy to draw a definite line between secular and “Islamic” governments. Does it make a government non-secular if it recognizes Islam as the state religion? (For that matter, does it make a European government non-secular if it recognizes some Christian sect as its state religion?) > [@BluePitbull](#): > > What about Islamic people who are the minority in other countries. Are they more liberal or conservative compared to other nations? I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here. Is this about Muslims in non-Muslim-majority countries? Are you asking whether those Muslim minorities are more liberal or conservative compared to the average citizens of the country they live in, or compared to Muslim-majority countries, or what? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/5 "2007-06-20T00:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] For now. The only country that is legitimately a Muslim theocracy is Iran. The rest are nominally secular. [/QUOTE] **Saudi Arabia** is a secular state? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/6 "2007-06-20T00:15:37Z")
Iraq was a secular state before we invaded it. Now it’s reverted back to theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/7 "2007-06-20T00:23:23Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Saudi Arabia is a secular state? I suppose you could technically stretch a point to say that Saudi Arabia is officially a monarchy with state ownership of resources, and hence nominally a secular state. As opposed to Iran, which explicitly decrees a religious body (the Guardian Council) and religious leader as the head of the people and charges them with oversight of all legal and governmental affairs—hence officially a theocracy. Both constitutions, however, explicitly invoke Islam as their state religion and guiding principle, and they don’t seem that different functionally. [Constitution of Saudi Arabia](http://www.the-saudi.net/saudi-arabia/saudi-constitution.htm) [Constitution of Iran](http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-1.html) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/8 "2007-06-20T00:36:07Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] **Saudi Arabia** is a secular state? :dubious: [/QUOTE] No, I suppose Saudi Arabia is a good counter-example. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/9 "2007-06-20T00:39:35Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Iraq was a secular state before we invaded it. Now it’s reverted back to theocracy. [/QUOTE] I was gonna say _that_. Dang. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/10 "2007-06-20T00:39:46Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here. Is this about Muslims in non-Muslim-majority countries? Are you asking whether those Muslim minorities are more liberal or conservative compared to the average citizens of the country they live in, or compared to Muslim-majority countries, or what? [/QUOTE] Sorry for not being clear. I was asking if muslims in predominately non-muslim countries are more liberal compared to muslims in dominately muslim countries. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/11 "2007-06-20T00:44:42Z")
OK, here’s a starting point. From [this website](http://www.islamic-world.net/countries/index.htm) ([www.islamic-world.net](http://www.islamic-world.net)), here are a list of islamic countries: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Benin, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Mozambique, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Suriname, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, WesternSahara, Yemen. I am guessing that they include every country with a sizable Islamic population. The only one that has a theocratic government, as far as I know, is Iran. You could look up each country in the [CIA world factbook](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html) ([www.cia.gov](http://www.cia.gov)) to see how it’s described. For example, the CIA world factbook describes Iran as a theocratic government. To properly answer the question, one must answer what is meant by “secular government”, as Kimstu has said, considering: Is Islam officially declared to be the state religion? Were the laws devised on a shariah system? An obvious (to us westerners), but maybe not relevant social differentiator - do women generally walk the streets of small cities without veils or head coverings? I would call Egypt and Yemen, for example, secular islamic states. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/12 "2007-06-20T00:57:51Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] Sorry for not being clear. I was asking if muslims in predominately non-muslim countries are more liberal compared to muslims in dominately muslim countries. [/QUOTE] If you consider the US a non-muslin country, the muslims I’ve know have been pretty conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Rediff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Rediff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rediff)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/13 "2007-06-20T01:15:00Z")
But is Turkey DEFACTO secular? I mean you can be a Muslim in the US and Western Europe and though you might face some discrimination, you still are pretty much free to practice? If you’re a Jew or a Christian or Hindu or Buddist or even Athiest, can you go about and practice without fear of being harrassed or physically threatened. It’s like in the old South black people always had the RIGHT to vote, but when you got mobs of white people threatening them with bodily harm if they vote, then you really don’t have that right. Is Turkey like that? It’s one thing to be secular “de Jour” and secular “de facto” is another thing. I’m not saying Turkey isn’t I’m just asking ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/14 "2007-06-20T01:20:09Z")
> [@Rediff](#): > > But is Turkey DEFACTO secular? I mean you can be a Muslim in the US and Western Europe and though you might face some discrimination, you still are pretty much free to practice? > > If you’re a Jew or a Christian or Hindu or Buddist or even Athiest, can you go about and practice without fear of being harrassed or physically threatened. Well, the [2002 US State Department Religious Freedom Report on Turkey](http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13986.htm) sez: > [@](#): > > The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice; however, the Government imposes some restrictions on religious groups and on religious expression in government offices and state-run institutions, including universities. > > There was no significant change in the status of respect for religious freedom during the period covered by this report. Some Muslims, Christians, and Baha’is faced some restrictions and occasional harassment, including detentions for alleged proselytizing or unauthorized meetings. The Government continued to oppose “Islamic fundamentalism.” An intense debate continues over a broad government ban on wearing Muslim religious dress in state facilities, including universities, schools, and workplaces. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/15 "2007-06-20T04:04:22Z")
Tunisia has an autocratic government which generally opposes excessively religious symbols like the hijab, although they aren’t the best example of a religiously free country. Same with Egypt although they are more democratic. Lebanon is really secular so much as pluralistic. Something like 35% of the population is Christian, and the Muslims are also divided fairly equally by sect. Government positions are divided; always the PM is Sunni, the President Maronite Catholic, and the Speaker is Shiite. While other religions/the nonreligious are underrepresented, there certainly is not Muslim hegemony on a national level. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/16 "2007-06-20T04:57:47Z")
I live in Indonesia and secularism varies greatly by region. On Java, for example, the atmosphere is very relaxed, but here in Aceh, there are Sharia police patroling the streets and beaches and monitoring people’s behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/17 "2007-06-20T11:09:12Z")
**madmonk28** , What is the actual legal status of those “Sharai police” patrols? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/18 "2007-06-20T12:07:55Z")
I believe Morocco has a secular government. Yes, I know, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco)–but this entry has references. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/19 "2007-06-20T15:51:19Z")
[QUOTE=Rediff] It’s one thing to be secular “de Jour” and secular “de facto” is another thing. I’m not saying Turkey isn’t I’m just asking [/QUOTE] Nothing of substance to add, just that “jour” is the French word for ‘day’ (as in _soupe du jour_, soup of the day). You want _de jure_, where _jure_ (or _iure_) is the ablative case of _ius_, _iuris_, ‘law.’ ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654/20 "2007-06-20T18:02:43Z")
[QUOTE=Rediff] But is Turkey DEFACTO secular? I mean you can be a Muslim in the US and Western Europe and though you might face some discrimination, you still are pretty much free to practice? If you’re a Jew or a Christian or Hindu or Buddist or even Athiest, can you go about and practice without fear of being harrassed or physically threatened. It’s like in the old South black people always had the RIGHT to vote, but when you got mobs of white people threatening them with bodily harm if they vote, then you really don’t have that right. Is Turkey like that? It’s one thing to be secular “de Jour” and secular “de facto” is another thing. I’m not saying Turkey isn’t I’m just asking [/QUOTE] I’ve worked in Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, not recently but not so long ago (within the last ten years). I’d rank them in that order from secular to religious. This is non-scientific, just my feel. In Turkey, specifically Istanbul which may be atypical but is certainly a big chunk of the country, it felt a lot like any city in Europe, albeit a somewhat poor and often disorganized one. They seemed proud of being “European” and did not consider themselves Asian or Middle Eastern. Obviously, there were mosques, and the call to prayer, but women came to work mostly in dresses or pants. In Egypt, you saw a lot more traditional women, but at least there were women in the offices, and these were actually often Coptic Christians. I was surprised that my colleague wore a crucifix. At the hotel I stayed in there was a casino, you could get served beer (not great beer, but real beer), and there were women in abbaya (sp?) sitting out in the courtyard, smoking sheesha with their menfolk. In Saudi Arabia, there are separate sections in all restaurants for Men Only and Families Only, so segregated dining, enforced coverage for women, women for the most part can’t work\* or drive or do most anything not considered the Islamic feminist ideal. It is the birthplace of Wahabism, the strict branch of Islam that spawned al Qaeda and bin Laden. There are religious police to ensure that there is no improper mingling of the sexes and that women are properly covered. You are asked the religion of your mother when applying for a visa. Stores closed and work essentially stopped during the five daily calls to prayer, although I was allowed to continue working, the guys at work (no women whatsoever) all took out the time to do their ablutions and pray in an office set aside for the purpose. \*Exceptions seemed to be for airline stewardesses (no male flight attendants), teaching girls, and some medical staff. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secular-islamic-countries/408654.md?page=2)