# SECULARISM IS NOT - The absence of religion **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896 "2008-04-04T05:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/1 "2008-04-04T05:17:25Z")
God, I am so fucking tired of this trope. Idiots on both sides of the debate buy into this totally. Secularism is the notion that one can have a state even while citizens hold conflicting beliefs about the nature of the universe. That it can even have competing institutions and still maintain a cohesive civil society. STOP MISUSING THE FUCKING TERM YOU IGNORANT MORONS! Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/2 "2008-04-04T05:20:54Z")
Definition from [Askoxford.com](http://Askoxford.com) > [@](#): > > secular > > /sekyoolr/ > > • adjective 1 not religious, sacred, or spiritual. 2 (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule. 3 Astronomy denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets. 4 Economics (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period. > > • noun a secular priest. > > — DERIVATIVES secularism noun secularist noun secularity noun secularize (also secularise) verb secularly adverb. > > — ORIGIN Latin saecularis ‘relating to an age or period’, from saeculum ‘generation’, used in Christian Latin to mean ‘the world’. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/3 "2008-04-04T05:25:06Z")
I’m going to guess that my recent thread was a contributing straw to breaking this camel’s back, but even if it isn’t, I’ll admit I’ve never heard the term “secular” or “secularism” to mean anything but “lack of religion.” Is there some other term that I missed? > **[Definition of SECULARISM](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secularism)** > > indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations… See the full definition Maybe it didn’t mean “lack of religion” initially, but my experience suggests it’s an established use now. Merriam-Webster and every other dictionary I can find agrees with me. At some point you may have to suck it up and deal with the change in meaning. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/4 "2008-04-04T05:41:12Z")
It means not governed by religion. Which the United States and many other world nations are not. It is not reactionary and opposed to religion, as people like to make it sound. It is more indifferent to religion, as religion is not the primary mechanism for exerting power over the state. The United States is a TOTALLY secular state. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/5 "2008-04-04T05:50:54Z")
Nah, you’re just wrong. The nearest lifeline available to you is that secularism once meant what you say. I’d be grabbing for that with both hands if I were you. Every dictionary reference I can find says that at most the meaning you contend for is one of several meanings (the wider meaning used by those you are pitting being another) and most don’t include your meaning at all. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/6 "2008-04-04T05:51:21Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] The United States is a TOTALLY secular state. [/QUOTE] The United States is _in theory_ a totally secular state. If we were a truly secular state, the executive branch would not include an [Office of Faith-Based Initiatives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Office_of_Faith-Based_and_Community_Initiatives) and Congress would not employ a chaplain. /nitpick ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/7 "2008-04-04T05:52:34Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] Nah, you’re just wrong. The nearest lifeline available to you is that secularism once meant what you say. I’d be grabbing for that with both hands if I were you. Every dictionary reference I can find says that at most the meaning you contend for is one of several meanings (the wider meaning used by those you are pitting being another) and most don’t include your meaning at all. [/QUOTE] That’s why I quoted from the real dictionary. ;p ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/8 "2008-04-04T05:53:43Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] The United States is _in theory_ a totally secular state. If we were a truly secular state, the executive branch would not include an [Office of Faith-Based Initiatives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Office_of_Faith-Based_and_Community_Initiatives) and Congress would not employ a chaplain. /nitpick [/QUOTE] President Obama will do away with that one pretty quickly I’d imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/9 "2008-04-04T06:00:04Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] That’s why I quoted from the real dictionary. ;p [/QUOTE] Is “not religious, sacred, or spiritual” really that much different from “the absence of religion”? If so, it seems to me that you’re making quite a subtle point. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/10 "2008-04-04T06:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] President Obama will do away with that one pretty quickly I’d imagine. [/QUOTE] I agree. Congress would have an Imam instead. :d&r: ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/11 "2008-04-04T06:03:09Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] President Obama will do away with that one pretty quickly I’d imagine. [/QUOTE] The office, maybe. I’d hope so. But Congress has employed a chaplain on taxpayer money since the First Congress and the Supreme Court has ruled that they are allowed to do so, and I expect that one will go away. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/12 "2008-04-04T06:08:31Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I agree. Congress would have an Imam instead. :d&r: [/QUOTE] Stupid joke (as I understand you to be acknowledging), but also pointless. There is nothing in the definition of the term “chaplain” that prevents an imam from holding such a position. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/13 "2008-04-04T06:10:44Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] That’s why I quoted from the real dictionary. ;p [/QUOTE] Why do you think your quote supports you? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/14 "2008-04-04T06:33:09Z")
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead] Is “not religious, sacred, or spiritual” really that much different from “the absence of religion”? If so, it seems to me that you’re making quite a subtle point. [/QUOTE] Well, I worded it poorly. Let me elaborate. I mean, it is not the overall absence of religion in a society. The government itself is secular, IE, not religious, but that does not mean that the culture has to void itself of religion in order for the state to remain a secular state. The context in which the word is used abuses the word in such a way as to portray secular as though it is OPPOSED to religion. Just because something does not DEAL with religion, doesn’t mean that religion is absent. A secular society is one that can moderate the relationship of multiple belief systems. The irony being that the way it is commonly used implies that a single belief system should dominate. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/15 "2008-04-04T06:46:52Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] A secular society is one that can moderate the relationship of multiple belief systems. [/QUOTE] Your quoted definition suggests nothing of the sort, although I admit that the phrase “moderate the relationship of multiple belief systems” is, shall we say, a bit opaque. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/16 "2008-04-04T06:49:28Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Your quoted definition suggests nothing of the sort, although I admit that the phrase “moderate the relationship of multiple belief systems” is, shall we say, a bit opaque. [/QUOTE] It is saying that the institution itself is not religious, not that the society it governs is devoid of religion. So, does anyone have any thoughts as to what a secular priest is then? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/17 "2008-04-04T06:56:59Z")
Secularism is the absence of religion, though not neccessarily opposition to or hostility towards religion. A secular government is a government from which religion is absent. A secular _society_ is a society from which religion is absent, or largely absent, or at any rate regarded as not being very important to daily life. The U.S. may have a secular government, but it is not a secular society (although there are areas, such as parts of the Pacific Northwest, that are much more secular than the “Bible Belt”). Many European countries have much more secular societies than the United States. Ironically enough, the UK\*, which in theory does _not_ have a secular government–that whole Church of England thing, along with the head of state being Defender of the Faith–has a more secular society than the U.S. “Wall of Separation” of A. Actually, it’s England that has the Established Church. Wales and Northern Ireland don’t; the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland I think has some sort of status as a “National Church” but is not an “Established Church”. Note that a secular society may not be _anti_-religious, it may even have a very high rate of very nominal adherence to some religion, like the Scandinavian countries where 90% of the population get married and buried in the Lutheran Church, but otherwise don’t really pay much attention to the whole religion thing. Religion may just be seen as a harmless, rather quaint, picturesque relic of the past. (In contrast to the feelings of many atheists and other nonbelievers in less secular societies; where large numbers of people still take religion very seriously, you are apt to have other people who take religion very seriously in a negative way.) One can advocate a secular government (separation of church and state) without necessarily advocating a secular society, or one may of course advocate for both. The means of advocating may also be different; a secular government being something _enforced_ by law and the Constitution, with a secular society being something to be worked for by way of peaceful persuasion and the voluntary decision-making of individuals (unless you’re some kind of Stalinist or something). Then there is “pluralism”, which sounds more like what you’re getting at with this “moderating the relationship of multiple belief systems” thing. A society could be pluralistic but not secular–made up of devout members of multiple faiths. Or pluralistic and mixed between secular, devout (of multiple faiths), rabidly atheistic, etc. (Like the U.S., in other words.) In any event, pluralistic societies are well advised to have secular governments, so as to avoid the whole “holy war” thing. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/18 "2008-04-04T06:59:20Z")
“Secular”, at its root, means “of the world” or “worldly”. A “secular priest” is a priest who goes out into the world (i.e., ministers to a congregation) rather than being cloistered in a monastery or hermitage to live a life of pure religious contemplation. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/19 "2008-04-04T07:00:20Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] So, does anyone have any thoughts as to what a secular priest is then? [/QUOTE] One who is “not subject to or bound by religious rule?” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/20 "2008-04-04T07:00:52Z")
**MEBuckner** I’ll accept that [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896.md?page=2)