# SECULARISM IS NOT - The absence of religion **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896 "2008-04-04T05:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/41 "2008-04-07T04:51:25Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Christianity is specifically about the community. [/QUOTE] What? > [@](#): > > So you are saying that the Christian members of the team should not be allowed to practice their religion as a group. I am? I guess the word “group” in “prayer group” could have been more obvious. What if I type “prayer _ **GROUP** _” instead? > [@](#): > > You are saying that the government should limit their franchise for their religion in favor of the non-practicing. Nope, I never said that either. I’m pretty sure I even gave specific examples that counter that. Strawmen all the way down. > [@](#): > > To be fair though, praying to win a sporting event is kind of missing the point of Christianity. I’m guessing that the “[good Christian kids](http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18255/atheists-sue-religious-town)” must have been sleeping on the day that was covered in Sunday School. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/42 "2008-04-07T05:13:47Z")
**DMC** You are saying you should get to dictate to them WHEN they pray as a group. You are saying that if the majority of people in a basketball arena want to pray at a given time, they shouldn’t be allowed to in favor of the minority who is made uncomfortable by it. The Hardesty story is sad. That is a fair place to say that is unchristian behavior. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/43 "2008-04-07T05:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **DMC** You are saying you should get to dictate to them WHEN they pray as a group. You are saying that if the majority of people in a basketball arena want to pray at a given time, they shouldn’t be allowed to in favor of the minority who is made uncomfortable by it. [/QUOTE] If you’re going to keep telling me what I’m saying instead of asking me, you should probably just use my words, not your shitty interpretation of them. They even invented these nifty things called “quote tags” to allow you to do so in a formal manner. Anyone can pray at any time they want. In my “praying in public” days, I prayed frequently, including at school. I didn’t require any of my fellow students to join me, nor did I even make them aware of the fact that I was doing so. If there were any teachers or administrators taking part in a private prayer at the same time I was, I assure you it was coincidental. In other words, I actually followed the teachings of Christ much more closely than the idiots in Hardesty, in that respect (and likely other respects as well). I have no problem if every last Christian in the U.S. prays in such a manner, in any place they desire, and again, for anything they want, including getting “lucky” with the head cheerleader. In many places and at many times, it’s okay for them to do so in an organized manner (according to the constitution, not the bible), even one led by government employees as long as it’s not a government institution. If some town that was predominantly atheist had a school basketball team that performed some sort of “humanist ritual” before and after games, especially with coaches, teachers, and other administrators taking part, I’d have the same response. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/44 "2008-04-07T06:11:28Z")
Umm ok. So my shitty interpretation that you don’t approve of people praying together at sporting events is wrong even though you uh…don’t approve of people praying together at sporting events? Well, with that kind of doublespeak, yeah, you’re words are too difficult for me to decipher. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/45 "2008-04-07T07:17:36Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] Again, **Lightnin** ’ was arguing against organized school prayer, which is what was happening in the Smalkowski case. He/she did recommend that there might be a more appropriate place for it, and it’s hard to argue against that, but never said that there was a problem with an individual praying in school. Perhaps it was another post where this was put forth? [/QUOTE] **Lightnin’** appears to be using the term ‘organized prayer’ to include those instances where a bunch of individuals huddle together to pray of their own accord, not under any government direction. If I’m mistaken (it can happen), so apparently are several others in that thread - for example, **Cheesesteak** in post #45. Maybe it wasn’t the best example of the phenomenon. Do I need to find a clearer one, or can it be accepted that sometimes, people argue that separation of church and state means personal religious expression should be prohibited in government establishments? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/46 "2008-04-07T07:39:36Z")
Just in case a different example _is_ required, I’ll post a link to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=305122) thread (only because searching the board is such a bloody pain at the moment and I have the link to hand). There are certainly some examples in that thread of the kind of assertions I’ve been trying to describe. Also, for the record, in retrospect I’m not particularly proud of having abandoned the discussion in that thread - I can only imagine I must have been externally stressed at the time - as a result of that flounce, I missed seeing - until now - the comic moment where **Kalhoun** called me _‘unAmerican’_. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/47 "2008-04-07T11:36:32Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] To be fair though, praying to win a sporting event is kind of missing the point of Christianity. [/QUOTE] So many things that Christians actually do seem to miss the point of Christianity. As an outsider, you kind of just expect that to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/48 "2008-04-07T12:14:27Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Maybe it wasn’t the best example of the phenomenon. Do I need to find a clearer one, or can it be accepted that sometimes, people argue that separation of church and state means **personal** religious expression should be prohibited in government establishments? [/QUOTE] Again, other than a few nutcases, you’re not likely to find anyone who has a problem with the vast majority of forms of **personal** (i.e. private) religious expression, even in a government establishment. It’s when it becomes **organized** that it is sometimes a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/49 "2008-04-07T12:25:00Z")
Probably true. Sometimes having argued about something with someone makes it seem more common than it truly is. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896/50 "2008-04-07T12:29:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Just in case a different example _is_ required, I’ll post a link to [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=305122) thread (only because searching the board is such a bloody pain at the moment and I have the link to hand). There are certainly some examples in that thread of the kind of assertions I’ve been trying to describe. [/QUOTE] **Stryfe** (a guest) is the only one that comes close to fitting as an example, and even they came around some at the end. Everyone else I saw was either on your side, or just wanted generic school uniforms pushed, as far as I could tell. Even **Der Trihs** , probably as vocally against the concept of religion as anyone here, isn’t likely to want the government to take away your right to private prayer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/secularism-is-not-the-absence-of-religion/443896.md?page=2)